Pics of root flares on young trees?

Does anyone have pics of the root flares on young trees (1-1/2" and under)?

It is obvious to me where the root flare is on mature trees, but with small, young trees it is difficult to tell if I am looking at the flare, or just a widening of the stem.

On young trees, should you actually see individual roots coming off the stem, or is that too much?

whitenack said:

Does anyone have pics of the root flares on young trees (1-1/2" and under)?

It is obvious to me where the root flare is on mature trees, but with small, young trees it is difficult to tell if I am looking at the flare, or just a widening of the stem.

On young trees, should you actually see individual roots coming off the stem, or is that too much?

Click to expand...

no pics, but i should be able to get some in a day or so...
that widening is most likely the flair. roots dont start right at the root collar and can be a several cm below before they begin. youll most likely be fine calling that wider part the root collar.

In other words, should all the little trees' root flares look like this?

http://www.rootflare.com/gfx/goodflare6.jpg

If so, I'm in trouble.

whitenack said:

In other words, should all the little trees' root flares look like this?

http://www.rootflare.com/gfx/goodflare6.jpg

If so, I'm in trouble.

Click to expand...

NO!
your fine, that is actually not the way bare root seedlings (most anyway) will look. there will be a bulge in the stem where the collar is at.
in that pic - i would bury those roots just below a bit of soil (not too deep, a few cm).
Ill try to shoot a pic today if i have a minute.

Call me paranoid, but what brought me to this site 4 years ago was planting a tree to low. I have learned way more than I thought there was to know about trees, and have really come to love them, so I guess it wasn't all bad.

Here are some pics of some trees I planted recently, as well as a tree I planted a few years ago.

Let me know what you think, if you can tell.

1. Here is a ginkgo that I planted in early spring. It was in a container. Maybe 1-1/2"




2. Another ginkgo that I planted at the same time. Also in a container. Also 1-1/2"




3. A (red?) maple that I also planted this spring. It was in a container. About 1". I know this isn't the highest of quality, but I bought it for $20. I figured I could try to nurse it along, instead of it just rotting at the nursery. I just watered, so the coloring is a little funny, but you can see what I hope is a major root coming off the side.




4. A red sunset maple I planted a couple years ago, b&b. It is about 3-4" wide.




Let me know if you need more pictures or of different angles.

Thanks for your time

Can anyone see those pics? I am trying to get them to show up inside the post, but I don't think I did it right. I can see them, but I don't know if you guys can.

(didn't see any FAQ about how to do it)

whitenack said:

In other words, should all the little trees' root flares look like this?

http://www.rootflare.com/gfx/goodflare6.jpg

If so, I'm in trouble.

Click to expand...

That tree is planted perfectly.
The bulge you often see on a nursery tree is called a graft union. There are two general types of grafts, one where the root stock is a small tree that is cut a few inches above the root flare and attached to the cion. With some trees this graft union can be 12" above the flare.
The second is where only roots are grafted on to a cion of a different tree. With the second type they can get several root stock off one tree.
With the first type of graft, which is much more common, you want the flare to look like your picture. with the second type, you want to bury it to the graft union, because roots should be in the ground and trunk should be in the air.

now can you guys see the pics?

yes, I can see the pics fine from here, but I'll let the experts diagnose them!

I'll leave 1 and 2 for our resident Ginko expert Elmore to comment on. Perhaps you could PM him a link to this thread in case he missed it.
Number 3 looks like it is at a good level, but it only seems to have one buttress root. Sometimes the tree is planted too deep for so long it develops adventitious roots that take over and become a whole new root system.
Number 4 sure looks like it could be too deep. The bulge you see at grade, is the graft union. Take a trowel or even a spoon and carefully dig around the base until you find where the roots grow out horizontally. Post a picture of what you find and we can comment further.

Mike Maas said:

Number 3 looks like it is at a good level, but it only seems to have one buttress root. Sometimes the tree is planted too deep for so long it develops adventitious roots that take over and become a whole new root system.

Click to expand...

You are right about the one buttress root. I dug out around the stem to make sure it wasn't one of those bent stem issues from mechanical planting, and saw that the stem continues straight down.

Mike Maas said:

Number 4 sure looks like it could be too deep. The bulge you see at grade, is the graft union. Take a trowel or even a spoon and carefully dig around the base until you find where the roots grow out horizontally. Post a picture of what you find and we can comment further.

Click to expand...

:bang: Man! I tried so hard with this one. I dug several inches off the root ball thinking I had gotten to the flair. I didn't realize there were graft unions on these trees.

So, how is the best way to excavate? Should I water it good first, so that the soil is not hard? How much disturbance can it withstand? I mean, if I start to pull away dirt, I am sure I am going to get into some surface roots. Just plow though them until I find the flair?

Mike Maas said:

I'll leave 1 and 2 for our resident Ginko expert Elmore to comment on. Perhaps you could PM him a link to this thread in case he missed it.
Number 3 looks like it is at a good level, but it only seems to have one buttress root. Sometimes the tree is planted too deep for so long it develops adventitious roots that take over and become a whole new root system.
Number 4 sure looks like it could be too deep. The bulge you see at grade, is the graft union. Take a trowel or even a spoon and carefully dig around the base until you find where the roots grow out horizontally. Post a picture of what you find and we can comment further.

Click to expand...

The Ginkgoes look fine. I find it difficult to decisively locate a graft union on older Ginkgo trees. Many grown from seed will look like they have a union. It's not as apparent as on smooth barked trees i.e. Acer palmatum.
The bulge, if you are referring to a Red Maple-Acer rubrum, can be a problem as there is a problem with graft incompatibility with that species and it's hybrid, x freemanii. Most reputable growers/propagators know not to bud or graft these species although I have seen some about three inch caliper. They say that they eventually fail.
Here is a good article on the subject : http://www.aridzonetrees.com/AZT Guest Articles/Arboreal Schizophrenia.htm

"Also, there are well-documented cases of graft incompatibility when the scion and root stock are of the same species but from different plants. Red maple (Acer rubrum) and Freeman maple (Acer ¥ freemanii) cultivars probably are the best examples of this problem, though the problem also occurs with oaks (Quercus spp.).
Graft incompatibility can be expressed as delayed incompatibility in which the failure of the graft does not occur until five to ten years after budding, when the tree is no longer in the nursery but in the landscape. It is not hard to find maple trees at 3 or 4 inches in diameter that died from delayed incompatibility. The symptoms of incompatibility are premature (and often spectacular) fall color, dieback, and eventual death—with the death sometimes occurring as the tree snaps off at about 3 inches (the height of the bud union)."

whitenack said:

:bang: Man! I tried so hard with this one. I dug several inches off the root ball thinking I had gotten to the flair. I didn't realize there were graft unions on these trees.

Click to expand...

I fully understand your frustration. I went nuts trying to find a decent tree. None of the nurseries apparently had a clue about flares, first order roots, or adventitious roots. It would be nice if the nursery staff were educated enough and/or cared enough to explain the situation to you. All I got was "Plant it at the same height as you got it from us". That's it.

Would it hurt them to say, perhaps:

"This tree has been produced by grafting a scion onto a root stock. To keep the tree from falling over in the small pot that it is currently planted in, we have buried the root stock well below the level it should actually be. When YOU plant it, remove it from the container gently, brush away the excess dirt and find the flare. Gently plant the tree such that the root flare is slightly above grade. The graft union will hence be several inches above ground. This will allow your tree to develop properly."

:bang:

:bang:

Well, I guess its not all bad. I finally got to see a root flare in person!

Ok guys. What do I do now?

As soon as I started pulling back the thin top layer of dirt, a girdling root immediately showed itself..



Then a big one pops up on the other side. (this was actually visable before I started digging, but I didn't realize it's true identity)



Finally found the flare. If this ain't it, I'll just give up and find me a plastic tree.





Here is a close up of one of the roots. What do I do with this? It seems to be attached to one of the main roots from the flare, but as you can see it grows straight up, and then runs in both directions perpendicular to the trunk. Leaving it will run the risk of girdling, but cutting it where it starts to become a problem will put the cut right next to the flare.



What do I do with the rest of the roots? Some of them are little thin things that I might be able to rearranged, but there are some big daddies that are not going to bend. Cut them? How is best?

Once I clean up all this mess, what do I need to do to help this poor guy recover?

As always, I thank you for your invaluable help.

Ideally you should slightly reduce the size of your pictures...lol
That way I won't have to scroll from side to side to read the text. Maybe I should get a bigger monitor.
As for roots I bend them or cut them and bury them. Although if I cut them I usually heave those.

Elmore - sorry about the big pics. I wanted everyone to get a good look.

I went ahead and did what I could with the maple. I couldn't get many of the roots to stay where I buried them, so I ended up having to cut most of them. I'll post some (smaller) pics tonight.

We'll see what it does. Any tips on what to do for it to help its recovery? Can I expect there to be any dead leaves/limbs? What warning signs do I need to look for?

Also, Elmore, I know you said that you thought the ginkgos looked fine, but now that I know I was mistaken on my red maple, I have a feeling I don't have the flare on my ginkgos either.

I see a bulge (like I did with my maple) but I don't see any roots coming off the bulge.

Unless anyone strongly objects, I plan to do some flare hunting on the ginkgos this weekend.

Sometimes the flare is not all that much evident. On young trees of certain species i.e. Acer palmatum or even on young Ginkgoes the trunk and roots, root crown, do not exhibit a noticeable flare. All you have to do is find the top-most anchoring root and that is the root crown a.k.a. root flare. Looking back at the second Ginkgo pic I think that it may be a little deep but once again, all you have to do is find the top-most anchoring root and that is the root crown. Plant a little high and mound up to the crown as many plantings will settle a bit. Find your roots and plant so that they a covered by no more than about an inch of soil. If it were a Japanese Maple I would say cover the top-most roots with no more than about 1/4' of soil.

Alright. Began work on Ginkgo #1. Tell me what I am looking at here (this is as small as I can get it with this photo software).






There is a (relatively) large root that comes off the stem, but the stem continues on straight down several inches with no other flare in sight. Looks like it is just an adventitious root, but I wanted your all's opinion before I dug deeper.

As I dig deeper, I guess I am increasing the need to just dig it up and replant?

It looks like it is planted at a good depth right there. Cover the roots up and put about 1/2" of soil over and above that apparent anchor root. Water it in. Mulch it and then water it again.

To make sure I understand...

Even though I see that the stem continues downward several inches, cover that part up and cover this anchor root up and that will be the proper depth?

Got started on Ginkgo #2. I believe I have found the flare pretty easily. Got to eat now, but will continue after that.