Forest Fires

[TREETX]

Any of ya'll catch the spot on 60 minutes 2 last night??

It was about how most arson related forest fires are started by.......firefighters. I was thinking yeah, what 2, maybe 4 a year. In the early 90's S.Carolina averaged 33 firefighters a year arrested for starting forest fires. Now it is a 3 a year because of an aggressive progam. That is just S. Carolina. What about the states that are still in denial.

It said they are started by those guys 18-29 whose life revolves around firefighting and really don't have an identity away from belonging to a fire crew.

They had a chief from New Mexico, fire not indian, who said that it is a major problem in that state.

As most things go, I am sure it is far bigger than anyone is admitting to. Just think about it next time you hear of a forest fire.

 

[Newfie]

I think it was the Sho Lo (sp?) fire this past summer that was intentionally set by a guy on the reservation because he was in need of some quick cash and he knew he would hired onto the crews to fight the fire. Burned his tribes timber as a result. A lot of strange and disturbing pyschology behind why SOME ( an emphasis on some NOT ALL) people become firefighters or nurses or even doctors that fills that helping/ hero need in a twisted unhealthy way.

I saw a documentary about the states most respected arson investigator in California. He was responsible for setting a large string of dangerous structure fires. People are twisted.

 

[swampwhiteoak]

I'd say its a bit more complicated than just an "identity" problem.

Many volunteer fire departments only recieve equipment and money for the department when they actually fight a fire. So the incentive is there for them to start some every now and then.

Federal and state agencies are moving towards using more and more contractors instead of actual employees. The contractors are only going to get paid when there are fires going, so they are probably much more likely to want to start some. (This is exactly what happened in Arizona this year with the Rodeo fire). In contrast a federal or state employee is on the payroll anyway so at least they are getting 40hrs/week even if nothing is burning.

A state which I formerly lived in had a similar problem many years ago. Whenever a fire started the fire protection agent would go to the county store and pick up day laborers to help him fight it. Unemployment in this region was high and many people needed work. So some of them would go start a fire, head to the county store and get paid for putting it out. That practice was ended for obvious reasons.

Of course 99%+ of people that do this type of work wouldn't dream of doing anything like that. All it takes are a few idiots to give the public a lasting bad impression.

 

[TREETX]

Using their numbers for s.carolina and NM and applying that to other states as well, it is more than just a few. You could easily say 1000 fires a year by fire fighters. Yer jus thinking of the magnormous ones that make the news. What about all of the 3-50 acre fires that never make a blip in the news??

 

[swampwhiteoak]

Over the last 8 yrs there have been an average of 83,000 forest fires in the US per year. Probably at least half are lightning caused giving at least 40,000 or so that are "other causes". Maybe a quarter of those are arsons, leaving 10,000. I find it hard to believe that 10% are caused by firefighters. Perhaps I am wrong.

Anyway, what I was hoping to convey with my first message was that the biggest reason for FF's to start fires is to get paid, not for thrills or brotherhood although some of them no doubt do it for that reason.

 

[Dennis]

Thrills and Brotherhood

It is actually amazing at the "brotherhood" among certain groups of firefighters. When I was 15 I did some training and joined a "RapAttack" crew, meaning initial attack of the fire...Rappel in and cut heli-pads for the choppers to bring in crews. When I joined, you could already see the veterans of the group acting differently. When we would go back to camp at the end of the day, they didnt talk to others, hung out with themselves...thinking they were the Kings...I only stayed with them for a year...didnt like it much...

Dont get me wrong, I am not making any inference that they would ever start fires...just commenting on the "brotherhood" so to speak.

Here are a couple firefighting pics I got from my buddies Helicopter site.

 

[Dennis]

This are Wildcat Helicopters machines...I do all their saw repair and modifications for them.

 

[TREETX]

Just one state averaging 30+ firefighters arrested for arson year after year, what do you think the national total is and how many do not get arrested?

I know, 911, fire fighters are sacred cows now. Lets but them more $300,000 trucks to drive around and pick up coffee and donuts.

Many people attracted to the job love fires and flames as an intity/being. P-Y-R-O

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If just 2% are started by firefighters, that is 1660 fires per year. If one man averages 3 fires that is 553

As mentioned, one of the problems is the contract help, which corelates to low wages and poor screaning of personel.

 

[TREETX]

They did say they were volunteer/contact help.

I'm sure they guys on salary are just fine cruising in a $300,000 truck to get donuts.

 

[WRW]

The late 19th century editor of the New York Sun, John B. Bogart, once wrote, "When a dog bites a man, that's not news because it happens so often. But if a man bites a dog, that's news."
If a policeman steals, it is big news. It doesn't matter that policemen in general have a lower theft rate than the general public. The same news criteria is applied for firefighters starting fires. Ditto for members, and former members, of the military and violent crimes.
The positive aspect of this is the self-policing efforts of these organizations.

 

[johncinco]

The best story like this was the guy out in CA who was an arson investigator, I think he wrote a book about it all, the name is something like firestarter or therebouts. He started one of the biggest fires ever to hit southern CA on his way home from a 3 day arson investigator conference! He is spending plenty of time thinking it all over, with no matches, in his cell still. It is estimated that he started 10-11 fires per year over a 17 year time frame. The darndest thing was he was called in on a regular basis to investgate the fires he started.

 

[WRW]

Yeah, that's my point...who caught him was his co-workers.
Back in the mid-eighties we had two local police departments that were running a burglary ring. It was the dog handlers that were doing it, and when they were called in the dog would ignore their scent. One cop figured it out and pulled one of them over on a deserted stretch of road and informed him that he was busted. He held his ground in spite of threats against his life. As a result, both burglary rings were eliminated.
I don't know about anyone else, but I call that guy a Hero!

 

[Reed]

Power can make people sick or worse yet if they start out sick then get the power.

Look up the federal defense contractor DynCorp. They had responsibilities in Bosnia ranging from fry cook to dentist to mercenary, fully loaded and trained and approved by us, the citizens of America. Now they're in Afghanistan.

We have domestic laws against slavery and torture (well, used to before last year) but these guys tend to go overboard just a bit.

Examples lead we tend to think.

By the way, DynCorp is a sub of Brown and Root, which is a sub of Halliburton. Know who helmed Halliburton? Mr. Family values himself.

Used to work for USFS. Mostly good folks until budget cuts in 1980. Fires? Uh huh. My super (nine forests total) wanted me to secure him a cheap whore from Thunder Bay, up into Canada. I knew his wife well, if she only knew. This guy eventually went from $50 whores to young boys. He was stung by the feds but they simply transferred him. His brother was among the Reagan Cabinet so he was immune to bad publicity or job loss. He always quoted from the bible, led each morning meeting with prayers. Leadership by example. That's when I first started to question the 'ol "family values" of the conservative right. The left wasn't much better but at least they stuck to women.

We had a rash of fires but mostly civilians looking for work - St. Louis County had a 70% unemployment rate for loggers. At least they had the intelligence to start 'em right and know enough to have containment downwind and not loose their homes. The feds came in snoop and all fires ceased until they left.

 

[bwalker]

That's when I first started to question the 'ol "family values" of the conservative right.

UMM, I dont think the left is any better with ol billy clintons getting BJ's in the oval office. Bottom line is 98% of all politicos are nothing but power whores.

 

[Reed]

Got that right BWalker!

Support no more any of 'em. Left or far Right. All boot-licking lackeys afraid to buck the system. The system's corrupt, period. Even the church, where we would expect things to deliver us from all the above.

Feel sorry for the normal folk though. Us poor working saps having to follow the myriad of new laws and some crummy old ones too. I need to get back up the trees - last few days in the doldrums now rain and cold. When the saw's startin' on one light pull and the limbs go exactly where you aim, that's what I miss.

 

[fun_chopper]

This is the deepest thread I have read yet on this site. I believe that at least 40% of the small fires grow into large ones due to different government agencies that cant decide who, how, and when they will fight it. I also believe that the government is self-supporting, and by that I mean if you needed funding would you drum some business for yourself? A forest fire buys equipment, and supplies, pays wages, gets raises. A forest fire also funds research, and prevention plans which require funding and what better excuse to ask the American people for money! It all comes down to the firefighter employing himself, the government does the same exact thing.