How to calculate torque of 7 and 8 tooth sprockets

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jpmoran

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Does anyone know if it is possible to calculate the torque of a chainsaw knowing chain pitch, # teeth, # drivers, HP, and max RPM?
If it can be calculated, what is the formula?
 
Does anyone know if it is possible to calculate the torque of a chainsaw knowing chain pitch, # teeth, # drivers, HP, and max RPM?
If it can be calculated, what is the formula?
No, that's not how torque is measured. Torque is a measurement of the twisting force of an engine, obtained by a Dynamometer.

Chain pitch is irrelevant to this measurement.

# of Cutters is a dynamic variable of no known quantities. What is the cutting efficiency of said cutters? Drag coefficient of cutters while cutting what species of wood, the specific fiber density of the wood being cut, how many cutters cutting simultaneously, the rate at which these variables shift while cutting, Too many variables in this one aspect to produce a constant value.

# of Drivers, only relevant if the above variables can be quantified.

So short answer is, there is no formula for measuring the torque of a chainsaw while cutting wood with said chainsaw.
 
pitch, teeth, drivers are not a factor.
rpm and HP are only factors.

Simply: HP = Torque x rpm / 5,252; for torque in ft-#
Left to student to convert to kW and N-m and radians/sec
 
Ok, I see.
So if I know a saw's RPM and HP how would I calculate the torque of a 7 or 8 tooth sprocket not factoring in load or external factors.
 
Torque = HP x 5252 / RPM
The sprocket has no value in this equation.
Not really true if you are looking for applied torque.
Changing the sprocket size changes the effective gearing. A smaller diameter sprocket will apply more torque to the chain, a larger diameter sprocket will transmit less torque and produce more chain speed.
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sproc_tun.htm
 
About a 14% difference between the 7 and 8 pin sprockets , obviously the 325. 7 is smaller than the 3/8 7 pin and the .404 7 is larger so effectively you are changing both the chain speed and torque application when changing pitch.
Thats why there's special rim sprockets up to 15 pin for racing and hydraulic drive saws.
 
Not really true if you are looking for applied torque.
Changing the sprocket size changes the effective gearing. A smaller diameter sprocket will apply more torque to the chain, a larger diameter sprocket will transmit less torque and produce more chain speed.
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sproc_tun.htm
This is mostly correct!
I'll elaborate, It requires less torque to spin a smaller diameter sprocket than it does a larger diameter sprocket.
Changing the drive sprocket will not change how much torque the engine is able to make. If an engine makes 4 ftlb of torque, it's going to apply 4 ftlb of torque regardless of the diameter of the sprocket it is driving.
The OP was asking if there were a way to calculate engine torque with out the use of a dyno.
 
This is mostly correct!
I'll elaborate, It requires less torque to spin a smaller diameter sprocket than it does a larger diameter sprocket.
Changing the drive sprocket will not change how much torque the engine is able to make. If an engine makes 4 ftlb of torque, it's going to apply 4 ftlb of torque regardless of the diameter of the sprocket it is driving.
The OP was asking if there were a way to calculate engine torque with out the use of a dyno.
The op appears to be asking about the torque difference between a 7 and 8 pin sprocket, not brake hp or torque output of the motor.
Ok, I see.
So if I know a saw's RPM and HP how would I calculate the torque of a 7 or 8 tooth sprocket not factoring in load or external factors.
The motor might produce 4 ft/lbs on a dyno (thats where you would use the formula T = HP x 5252 / RPM) , but when you put it in the saw, install a sprocket, chain and bar, the actual power output will be somewhat lower and you need to adjust for drive loses. Its the same as Brake HP vs Wheel HP in a car. A larger sprocket has a larger radius, which means a longer lever arm, which means it takes more power to turn. So, there is less torque available to actually move the chain. The question seems to be how much torque would be lost or gained by changing sprocket diameter.
 
This is related to car wheels, but same principal would apply...

tractive effort= Torque/tyre radius (dynamic rolling radius) say you have 100Nm of torque which is constant now you used 25inch tyre= radius=0.3175m so tractive effort = 100/.3175=314N Now you used 24inch dia tyre=radius=.3048m so tractive effort = 328.08N

Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/torque-and-wheel-size-of-a-car.786610/
 
The op appears to be asking about the torque difference between a 7 and 8 pin sprocket, not brake hp or torque output of the motor.

The motor might produce 4 ft/lbs on a dyno (thats where you would use the formula T = HP x 5252 / RPM) , but when you put it in the saw, install a sprocket, chain and bar, the actual power output will be somewhat lower and you need to adjust for drive loses. Its the same as Brake HP vs Wheel HP in a car. A larger sprocket has a larger radius, which means a longer lever arm, which means it takes more power to turn. So, there is less torque available to actually move the chain. The question seems to be how much torque would be lost or gained by changing sprocket diameter.
Your not reading the whole question!!
Ok, I see.
So if I know a saw's RPM and HP how would I calculate the torque of a 7 or 8 tooth sprocket not factoring in load or external factors.
 
Read the whole thread.
First post -
Does anyone know if it is possible to calculate the torque of a chainsaw knowing chain pitch, # teeth, # drivers, HP, and max RPM?
If it can be calculated, what is the formula?
The question is asking for torque with the motor in the saw and accessories in place and being driven. BHP and rpm are constants from which you can derive torque. Since you can't use the variables listed (chain pitch, # teeth, # drivers) to calculate applied torque, the next question was
So if I know a saw's RPM and HP how would I calculate the torque of a 7 or 8 tooth sprocket not factoring in load or external factors.
It is very obvious that the torque delivered at the crank wouldn't change as long as the advertised HP and RPM are maintained as constants, so its safe to assume that the OP is not just looking for engine torque derived from the HP numbers listed by the manufacturer but how much of that torque would be available to drive the chain when using different size sprockets.
 
Ok...I'm going to dumb this down as far as humanly possible.
Put the saw on a dyno. In this example, we have a 550xp
Collect dyno data.
550xp Dyno.jpg
Cut wood with saw.
While cutting wood with saw, collect RPM data with tach.
Look at collected dyno data.
Find RPM scale on dyno data. (HINT: it's at the bottom)
Find RPM that matches RPM collected with tach.
Follow that line up until you see the intersecting Tq. or Hp. line.
Look to the left to see what the Tq or Hp are @ that RPM.
Congratulations, you now know how much Tq. and Hp. are required to pull that chain with that sprocket through that piece of wood.
 
Sorry to have been absent from the discussion. I thought my question was a dead horse.

LoneOak is right, I’m trying to find an equation that will show the effects of gearing a chainsaw. It is my understanding that with all things being equal, more sprocket teeth = higher chain speed / less cutting torque due to an increase in the sprocket diameter, and fewer teeth = slower chain speed / more cutting torque.

Knowing the powerhead’s RPM and HP and the chain pitch, can the benefits of a 6, 7, or 8 tooth drive sprocket be calculated for a given saw. Or at least the difference.
 
Sorry to have been absent from the discussion. I thought my question was a dead horse.

LoneOak is right, I’m trying to find an equation that will show the effects of gearing a chainsaw. It is my understanding that with all things being equal, more sprocket teeth = higher chain speed / less cutting torque due to an increase in the sprocket diameter, and fewer teeth = slower chain speed / more cutting torque.

Knowing the powerhead’s RPM and HP and the chain pitch, can the benefits of a 6, 7, or 8 tooth drive sprocket be calculated for a given saw. Or at least the difference.
{If I recall correctly Hp was derived from noting the time taken for a (pit-pony) to pull a load of 1 ton over a distance of 1 foot in 1 minute but continuously for, again from memory, 4 hours. }

When the engine is not operating, torque is nil. When operating with no load other than the crank the turning power depends on the thrust of the pistons. The speed with which that torque is applied results in measurable 'horsepower'. The formula used as earlier gives the wrong impression....Torque produces Hp not the other way around and that Hp varies with the applied torque and the speed of rotation. Ingneral terms Torque = force applied x distance of the travel. Hp =torque x rpm.
Timing, cam profile, headwork, nature of aspiration and so on affect performance. In a chain saw fuels may alter the performance but with little adjustment to utilise it....the type of chain teeth used might give a sensory indicator.

Cars track raced at high revs commonly use light if any flyweels and may use lightened gears as not needing so much torque sustainability as might a road car with mechanically-unskilled drivers allowing the engine speed to fall below best torque production in any gear....as the driving wheels slow down Hp is reduced....Hp being the concept of how quickly work can be done. It's not so easy to hold a chainsaw at constant speed at which torque is highest so we run them 'flat out' and the conditions pull the Hp up and down.

With transmissions...and a chainsaw is a 'power/torque' transmitter come vectors which will reduce the 'crankshaft' Hp dependant on the torque sustainability or otherwise. To asses the torque difference between drive sockets use the factory figures and ratio the diameters, but also the mass. I suspect the usual 'square law' will come into it so I imagine the comparative formula might be, change in torque... at constant revs....= (Diameter -small) squared x D-small mass /(Diameter -large) squared x D-large mass. Unlike a gear box in a car changing teeth numbers when one gear drives another, changing teeth numbers on a chainsaw drive gear makes little difference. One can argue that a chain is effectively a gear but I'd say unless the bar is very small any change in normal drive gear teeth (one or two) would be marginal...

The torque at chain-drive gear centre will be the close to being the same not withstanding gear-teeth ; more torque at some marginal amount will be needed to turn the heavier gear. It is the mass, condition, suitability and condition of the chain which demands torque adequate to travel around the bar ....then the cutting itself requires torque increase over the mere turning of the chain.

Chainsaws are run at high rev's to maintain torque and thereby, horsepower. They are in that way interdependent. There is a stage at which the engine perfoms 'best'...as it looks at all factors of rotating mass, fuel, heat...Curves can illustrate that.
 
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