I have an idea on how to get rid of coals faster. What you think?

[Del_]

It doesn't sound like speculation to me. It sounds like on days off he's had the coal build up problem and being home at the time he's opened the air control up and it's worked, and now he's wants to automate the process. Why would you automate a process without giving it a manual try.

I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does speculate that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
*

I have a quadra fire 5700 wood stove and I love my burn times and heat output. My problem is I'm accumulating cherry red coals faster than I can burn them now that it's cold and I'm feeding the stove full.
My wife and I work away so I build big fires in the am and before bed. My stove puts out a lot of heat throughout the secondary burn of the gasses but after that I have charred pieces of wood that need more air to deplete them and get more heat from them.
I want to hook an electric actuator to my air control and control it with a digital timer. I'd set it so after five hours give or take the actuator would power up and open my air control while I'm at work. Then I wouldn't have try to burn so many coals down before loading again.

 

[laynes69]

I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does speculate that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
*

I will say 100% that once secondary combustion stops and and the damper is opened, or primary air is increased during the coaling stage, it eliminates coals, while producing alot of heat. That's how our furnace operates, a majority of the heat is produced when the furnace is in active burn. Once that's done, the temperature reduces, causing the house to drop in temp. The damper opens completely, the coalbed remains bright, and once heating demand it met, it closes. If this didn't happen, I would wake to a huge coalbed that would be a problem. That's why I load based on heating demand. When we had temps below zero and windchills close to 40 below here recently, I loaded our furnace at 9pm. When I woke at 4:30am, the only thing in front was ash in the firebox, and the rear of the firebox had a coalbed glowing white from the base to the top of the firebox. The coalbed burned from front to back, while keeping the house above 70 degrees overnight.

 

[chadihman]

I've read the posts from chadihman several times, and I can not find where he states such a thing. He does speculate that opening the air after secondary combustion will resolve the issue (that was the point of his thread, he was asking for opinions)... but he hasn't posted where it has been verified in any way, shape or form. And, even though what you say has been brought up a couple of times, and I've pointed out it's only speculation at this point (based on available posts)... the OP has not clarified. It may resolve the problem... it may not... but at this point, we just don't know.
*

Let me clear this up. My problem with coals is only when I'm filling the stove to its gills with hardwood to produce enough heat to keep my house above 70 deg while my wife and I are at work for 8-10 hours. When I get home the stove is half full of ash covered coals. I open the stove air supply and usually throw a small piece of wood on top of the coals. It takes a couple hours to get the coals burnt down. In the meantime the house is cooling down. When I'm home I can just open the air supply and the coals burn down before the house cools down.

My quadrafire has a start up air control that let's air in four 1/2'' holes three inches from the floor in the rear of the stove it also let's air in the front ledge one inch from the floor. The main air control feeds the air wash and the bottom front holes. I want to add the timed or temperature controlled actuator to open the startup air as this works the best at burning up coals.

 

[Whitespider]

So, if I'm getting this, you want to automatically open the "start up" air along the bottom of the fire box... not the primary or secondary combustion air?? And this is what you've verified to help with the coaling issue in your box??
My stove doesn't have such a thing. Man, (I'm assuming) that's different than anyone was thinkin' in this thread. I don't believe that's a manufacturer "recommended" procedure (but that's only a guess). Anyway... that's a lot closer to air under the fire than it is air over the fire. If you're not worried about a safety issue while you're away (and I'm not sayin' there is one, 'cause I don't know)... it sounds good to me. Any air coming in close to the coal bed and blowin' directly into it, even if it ain't under it, is gonna' be better than air flowin' over it (IMO).

I'll be real interested in the results...
*

 

[chadihman]

So, if I'm getting this, you want to automatically open the "start up" air along the bottom of the fire box... not the primary or secondary combustion air?? And this is what you've verified to help with the coaling issue in your box??
My stove doesn't have such a thing. Man, that's different than anyone was thinkin' in this thread. I don't believe that's a manufacturer "recommended" procedure (but that's only a guess). Anyway... that's a lot closer to air under the fire than it is air over the fire. If you're not worried about a safety issue while you're away (and I'm not sayin' there is one, 'cause I don't know)... it sounds good to me. Any air coming in close to the coal bed and blowin' directly into it, even if it ain't under it, is gonna' be better than air flowin' over it (IMO).

I'll be real interested in the results...
*

Correct. I want to automatically open the startup air control that let's a large amount of air in the bottom front and back of the stove. The start up air feeds under the coals when it's deep in coals.

 

[Cerran]

The startup air on your 5700 is on a mechanical timer correct? I believe all the ACC stoves by Quadrafire are.

 

[Del_]

Correct. I want to automatically open the startup air control that let's a large amount of air in the bottom front and back of the stove. The start up air feeds under the coals when it's deep in coals.

Maybe a thermostatically controlled damper on that startup air input would be best. That would greatly reduce the chance of a timer like devise opening with a large fuel load and over firing the wood stove.

Please do consider a device to close secondary air. I'm telling you, it works here. Of course we have quite different wood stoves with mine having 'full open' secondary air at all times. I have to primary air supply routes. One is an air wash that flows downwards in front of the glass doors. The second primary in an 'air head' that sits just inside the center of the glass doors and has five small openings about one inch above the floor of the stove. The air from the air head 'drills' holes in any coal bed. When I close secondary combustion air I can see the 'drilling' level increase.

 

[chadihman]

The startup air on your 5700 is on a mechanical timer correct? I believe all the ACC stoves by Quadrafire are.

Yes the start up air control is on a spring operated timer. If I push it open all the way then slide it back closed then the timer closes it. If i push it open and dont close it it stays open.

Maybe a thermostatically controlled damper on that startup air input would be best. That would greatly reduce the chance of a timer like devise opening with a large fuel load and over firing the wood stove.

Please do consider a device to close secondary air. I'm telling you, it works here. Of course we have quite different wood stoves with mine having 'full open' secondary air at all times. I have to primary air supply routes. One is an air wash that flows downwards in front of the glass doors. The second primary in an 'air head' that sits just inside the center of the glass doors and has five small openings about one inch above the floor of the stove. The air from the air head 'drills' holes in any coal bed. When I close secondary combustion air I can see the 'drilling' level increase.

Yes I will consider closing the secondary air. My secondary air is not controllable but the air tubes all connect to a manifold with a roughly one inch opening to feed all the tubes. I could pretty easily make a flap to close off the secondary manifold hole.

 

[tla100]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if you have any faster burning/hotter woods, mix with your hardwood. I would give it a try. I usually have for sure 2 different types of wood in when loading.

Does it sit and cool down and you are left with charcoal, or does it finally burn out completely if you let it sit?

 

[chadihman]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if you have any faster burning/hotter woods, mix with your hardwood. I would give it a try. I usually have for sure 2 different types of wood in when loading.

Does it sit and cool down and you are left with charcoal, or does it finally burn out completely if you let it sit?

Most times especially if its all hardwood. It'll almost die out. The corners are cooled down charcoal.
Could be that my secondary air supply is too great. If it was reduced maybe I could let more air in pn the primary control as the secondary fire wouldn't be as hot.

 

[Whitespider]

One of the things I tried with my PE was disconnecting the linkage between the primary and secondary controls and running them independently. It didn't seem to make any difference after secondary combustion stopped, even with the secondary completely closed... meaning the coaling issue wasn't changed. I did a "smoke bomb" test several times so I could watch the air flow in the box... the secondary air never made it to the coals, it just flowed out the flue. Watching the primary wasn't as easy because the smoke flows down the door restricting view clarity. But, I was able to see it flowed down the door, turning into the coal bed briefly, and then rising up and out the flue... it never even made it half way across the coal bed. As the coals slowly died, the air (or smoke) traveled a progressively shorter distance across the coals.

That explained why the rear half or more of the coal bed wouldn't heat, and totally died out. Doing same primary air smoke test with the grate in place, I could watch the smoke flow under the grate, where surprisingly it mostly disappeared... I assumed the introduced smoke was being consumed (burned) as it flowed up through the coal bed (shrug).

My PE has an ash drawer under the stove where the air enters the firebox... I just used damp, wadded up newspaper in the ash drawer for the "smoke bomb". It made a lot of smoke, which was adjustable by the amount used... and you could watch exactly what the air was doing in the box during the coaling stage (except for the restricted clarity from the air wash with primary open).
*

 

[Whitespider]

Like this...

 

[1project2many]

My Englander uses a ceramic board to provide heat for secondary. The board is removable. It's supposed to be installed with the gap at the front to allow smoke to exit. I slide the board so smoke exits in the back.

 

[Cerran]

Most times especially if its all hardwood. It'll almost die out. The corners are cooled down charcoal.
Could be that my secondary air supply is too great. If it was reduced maybe I could let more air in pn the primary control as the secondary fire wouldn't be as hot.

Which seems to lead a lot of creedence to the idea that some of the stoves out there aren't configured for hardwood. Quadrafire is a PNW company and I would bet most of their stoves are cordwood tested on doug fir or larch. Now we need some reps from the stove companies affected to listen to the complaints.

 

[Cerran]

One of the things I tried with my PE was disconnecting the linkage between the primary and secondary controls and running them independently. It didn't seem to make any difference after secondary combustion stopped, even with the secondary completely closed... meaning the coaling issue wasn't changed. I did a "smoke bomb" test several times so I could watch the air flow in the box... the secondary air never made it to the coals, it just flowed out the flue. Watching the primary wasn't as easy because the smoke flows down the door restricting view clarity. But, I was able to see it flowed down the door, turning into the coal bed briefly, and then rising up and out the flue... it never even made it half way across the coal bed. As the coals slowly died, the air (or smoke) traveled a progressively shorter distance across the coals.

That explained why the rear half or more of the coal bed wouldn't heat, and totally died out. Doing same primary air smoke test with the grate in place, I could watch the smoke flow under the grate, where surprisingly it mostly disappeared... I assumed the introduced smoke was being consumed (burned) as it flowed up through the coal bed (shrug).

My PE has an ash drawer under the stove where the air enters the firebox... I just used damp, wadded up newspaper in the ash drawer for the "smoke bomb". It made a lot of smoke, which was adjustable by the amount used... and you could watch exactly what the air was doing in the box during the coaling stage (except for the restricted clarity from the air wash with primary open).
*

Which is why the stove companies generally tell you to rake the coals to the front when reloading, but if you have too many coals that is impossible to do effectively. Now we actually seem to be getting to a root cause of the issue people are experiencing.

 

[fixit1960]

Which is why the stove companies generally tell you to rake the coals to the front when reloading, but if you have too many coals that is impossible to do effectively. Now we actually seem to be getting to a root cause of the issue people are experiencing.

They evidently have the design parameters so tight in order to meet the regulatory criteria that using another "grade" of wood will greatly diminish the stove performance. Unless there is a way to introduce more air where you need it, when you need it, it is a one wood stove!!

 

[Cerran]

They evidently have the design parameters so tight in order to meet the regulatory criteria that using another "grade" of wood will greatly diminish the stove performance. Unless there is a way to introduce more air where you need it, when you need it, it is a one wood stove!!

I don't think that is necessarily the case. This really might be the case that they build a design, test it with a couple types of wood, make sure it passes the EPA tests and not go any further and test with hardwoods and softwoods. Never underestimate the laziness of manufacturers if someone doesn't hold their feet to the fire. Also, solving an issue like this isn't an easy task when not every stove user has the issue. There does seem to be a common denominator for when it occurs from the experience here however.

 

[Whitespider]

Which seems to lead a lot of creedence to the idea that some of the stoves out there aren't configured for hardwood.

And that sort'a brings full circle again, to what I've said many times...

The stoves are "configured" to pass EPA testing first... anything else must be, out of necessity, a distant second. If it can't pass the tests, it can't be sold, and at that point how well it does or does not work becomes meaningless. The tests are performed with fir 2x4 and/or 4x4 dimensional lumber nailed together with spacers between them... the design must pass those tests using that fuel. It does not matter if the stove is made in the Oregon, Texas, Iowa, Connecticut, somewhere in Canada, or overseas... they all must pass the same EPA testing using the same fir boards, spaced and nailed into what is called a "crib". The only thing that changes is the size of the "crib" and the size of the boards depending on the size of the box.

The manufacturer is in a (sort'a) catch-22. If they listen to customer requests for changes, they must re-certify, which ain't cheap (neither is making changes). If the changes result in EPA test failure, the manufacturer has wasted valuable time and resources. This means the manufacturer will need to run several "practice" tests of his own during the development of changes or a new model... the time and resources expended doing those "practice" tests ain't cheap either. And the tests specify more than just fuel... for example, the door or "start up air" can only be left open for a specified time during start-up, chimney height is specified, etc., etc., etc. The stove must pass testing under very specific, narrowly defined conditions. It actually is almost magic that they work as well as they do for so many users... but to expect them to perform well for all users, under all the variables of the "real" world?? Well... like I've said... you would have to believe in magic to expect that. And that's also why I've asked so many times... why is it so hard for some to believe that the EPA certified type of box is not always gonna' be the best choice for every application?? Common sense has to tell you it just flat can't be... it just flat ain't possible‼

Now, I gotta' believe that the majority of stove makers (heck, maybe all of 'em) do the absolute very best they can with the limitations placed on them by EPA regulations. I don't see the design faults as manufacturer fault, or even poor workmanship... my PE is the best quality, most solidly built appliance I've ever owned. I fault the ridiculous, one-size-fits-all EPA emissions requirements (no requirement for heating efficiency at all, it ain't even referenced)... it really is plain stupid. And now they plan on making emissions requirements even more restrictive (but still no heating efficiency requirement)... it's total lunacy. There's gonna' be more and more complaints over the next few years... common sense has to tell you there will be... it just has to tell you that‼ There ain't no magic... we still live in a "real" world.
*