USFS wood permit, 2nd violation, advice plz re court appearance. Thanks!

[Fred Wright]

You in a HEAP o' trouble, Boy!

Seriously, your best advice is to talk with an attorney. This is a second offense ~ you're gonna need one.

 

[Muffler Bearing]

Tell them you are an illegal immagrant!!

You'll probably walk out of there with a pocket full of food stamps, and a free obummer phone!:msp_sneaky:

 

[tomtrees58]

Bottom line is you've got one ticket and you went back and got another one so you have to pay the price

 

[Whitespider]

This story reminds me of a few years ago when I had to go bail my son (19 and livin’ in his own place at the time) out’a jail… a $30,000 bail.

He had built this hot-rod Camaro, gotten in some trouble with his driving previously and temporarily lost his license to drive. So he’s leaving town one evening, headed for a buddy’s house in another town, when the local town cop tried to pull him over for speeding. At the time he’s under the legal drinking age, already had a couple beers and has an open one in the car (no, I don’t condone that)… so he figures it’s best to run (idiot).

Anyway, a high-speed chase, at speeds over 170 MPH, across two counties involving 2 Sherriff departments and the State Troopers results in 17 separate tickets/violations. I don’t remember what all of them were, but when I bail his sorry azz out I ask…
“Damnit kid, if you have no drivers license, no insurance, you’re under age, you’ve been drinking, open container in the car… what in the hell were you doing speeding leaving town?”
His answer…
“Gee dad, I didn’t know what the speed limit was on that street.”
:baffle:

Just like my son... you got no defense...
You were cutting without a permit...
You knew you didn't have a permit...
And it doesn't matter if you tried to get one... you flat didn't have one and you knew it...
My thinkin' is you'll just have to be polite, admit wrong-doing, and ask the judge to be lenient... good luck.

 

[bert0168]

You were cutting without a permit...
You knew you didn't have a permit...
And it doesn't matter if you tried to get one... you flat didn't have one and you knew it...
My thinkin' is you'll just have to be polite, admit wrong-doing, and ask the judge to be lenient... good luck.

Yea, this is the part I don't get.

Doesn't matter if you agree with their policies or not, their game, their rules, follow them or go cut somewhere else.

Quit trying to find a way out of it, you did it, you knew you shouldn't have, time to pay the piper.

Remember, "If your gonna be dumb, you better be tough."

 

[tomtom-blue]

Some details...

On 8/25/2012 - 36 CFR 261.6 (e) Loading, removing or hauling timber... $100 + 25 processing fee, paid via online.

On 10/8/2012 - Warning (USFS field agent didn't carry citations), then escorted to mtn remote fire station to drop wood only.

On 10/9/2012 - By officer phone request, voluntary conference, go to ranger station. 2-citations issued:
36 CFR 261.6 (a) - ->Cutting<- or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.
36 CFR 261.6 (h) - ->Removing<- any timber, tree or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

Issuing officer wrote 10/9/2012, 1630hrs for "Date and Time of Offense" on both citations...and not 10/8/2012, 1100hrs when verbal warning happened in the field. 1st USFS agent giving the warning was not present at voluntary conference.

Not seeing much info beyond the regulations via Google search. Will look for court case histories, when ask to see Federal Register this week downtown in San Diego at federal courthouse. Thanks so much for everyone's help here. -T

 

[stihl023/5]

When all is said and done, stop paying the govt. for wood find another source.:bang:

 

[Sandhill Crane]

"What we have here... is a failure to communicate."

 

[darkbyrd]

I guess some men you just can't reach.

OP: Pucker up, buttercup.

 

[bert0168]

Some details...

On 8/25/2012 - Ventured onto USFS property without proper permits to remove wood

On 8/25/2012 - 36 CFR 261.6 (e) Loading, removing or hauling timber... $100 + 25 processing fee, paid via online.

On 10/8/2012 - Ventured onto USFS property 2nd time without proper permits to remove wood

On 10/8/2012 - Warning (USFS field agent didn't carry citations), then escorted to mtn remote fire station to drop wood only.

On 10/9/2012 - By officer phone request, voluntary conference, go to ranger station. 2-citations issued:
36 CFR 261.6 (a) - ->Cutting<- or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.
36 CFR 261.6 (h) - ->Removing<- any timber, tree or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

Issuing officer wrote 10/9/2012, 1630hrs for "Date and Time of Offense" on both citations...and not 10/8/2012, 1100hrs when verbal warning happened in the field. 1st USFS agent giving the warning was not present at voluntary conference.

Not seeing much info beyond the regulations via Google search. Will look for court case histories, when ask to see Federal Register this week downtown in San Diego at federal courthouse. Thanks so much for everyone's help here. -T

There, fixed it for ya!

 

[Wolfen]

When all is said and done, stop paying the govt. for wood find another source.:bang:

Best Idea I have heard yet

 

[Wazzu]

Some details...

On 8/25/2012 - 36 CFR 261.6 (e) Loading, removing or hauling timber... $100 + 25 processing fee, paid via online.

On 10/8/2012 - Warning (USFS field agent didn't carry citations), then escorted to mtn remote fire station to drop wood only.

On 10/9/2012 - By officer phone request, voluntary conference, go to ranger station. 2-citations issued:
36 CFR 261.6 (a) - ->Cutting<- or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.
36 CFR 261.6 (h) - ->Removing<- any timber, tree or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

Issuing officer wrote 10/9/2012, 1630hrs for "Date and Time of Offense" on both citations...and not 10/8/2012, 1100hrs when verbal warning happened in the field. 1st USFS agent giving the warning was not present at voluntary conference.

Not seeing much info beyond the regulations via Google search. Will look for court case histories, when ask to see Federal Register this week downtown in San Diego at federal courthouse. Thanks so much for everyone's help here. -T

You probably just won your case. First the person put the wrong date for the infraction due to the fact that it actually occurred the day prior. The second thing is that the person issuing the citation did not even see you commit said violation. Had you not shown up to the office they probably could not have issued you a citation. When you go to court make sure you request that the person issuing the ticket be present, ask the judge how it is that a person that issued you a citation was not even present when the supposed violation already occurred and that you had already been issued a verbal warning by official xxxxxx in the field.

Just so you know, it was not smart on your part to voluntarily go to the office, I am guessing you probably admitted to whatever they accused you of too right? Next thing is START buying permits if you are going to cut on land supposedly owned by the king I mean USFS. These guys are going to be gunning for you from here out, especially if you beat the ticket......

 

[Dalmatian90]

Ok, here goes my I Am Not A Lawyer take on it:

1) The mandatory appearance is you're dope slap for having done the same violation twice in six weeks or so.

2) On a quick google search, you're probably looking at a $150 + three months probation. The maximum is $5,000 and six months, but unless the judge finds you in bed with his daughter the morning of the trial, that's pretty unlikely. Or you have a record of other federal violations.

3) You can probably handle this without an attorney.

But it would be good to google for local federal court defense attornies and find a couple who offer free consultations and take advantage of that.

Have your ducks in a row, especially if they ask you to come in to their office have a copy of the statute printed (so they don't have to spend time looking for it), the tickets, etc.

My guess is if:
a) You can take time off from work for the court appearance;
b) It's not a felony (I'm pretty sure) so there shouldn't be any long term impact to you in future background checks, etc.;
c) You're not looking at losing your driver's license or other situation that would affect your livelihood;
d) If all you're looking at is $150 + probation, the cost of defending you just to get the exact same sentence isn't worth your money or the attorney's time

Then go ahead a handle it yourself and just be humble to the judge and let him know you know you screwed up and got impatient with the bureaucracy, but you won't let that happen again. But also remember, you don't have to go overboard -- just be respectful.

4) If you're ever caught for this again, be polite, be cooperative, and remember the magic phrase, "I decline to answer as I am exercising my right to remain silent." And have the number for the attorney from (3) handy because you're going to need it. The Magistrate Judge will not be amused to see you again. (The case will be heard by a Magistrate, who are appointed by the local Federal District Judges; it's the District Judges who are the ones nominated by the President and appointed by Congress).

 

[MotorSeven]

All this for a "few rounds of Pine" ???....PINE????

Good grief man if your going to prison at least it should be for cutting up a 30" Oak

 

[Dalmatian90]

You probably just won your case. First the person put the wrong date for the infraction due to the fact that it actually occurred the day prior. The second thing is that the person issuing the citation did not even see you commit said violation. Had you not shown up to the office they probably could not have issued you a citation. When you go to court make sure you request that the person issuing the ticket be present, ask the judge how it is that a person that issued you a citation was not even present when the supposed violation already occurred and that you had already been issued a verbal warning by official xxxxxx in the field.

Just so you know, it was not smart on your part to voluntarily go to the office, I am guessing you probably admitted to whatever they accused you of too right?

I wouldn't pin the case on the dates. The dates are accurate for the warning (when a non-sworn employee observed you) and when the sworn officer determined he could issue the citation.

The non-sworn forest service employee issued the warning. If he was a law enforcement officer, he would've had a citation book.

A parallel would be passing a bad check to a store clerk. The police officer doesn't have to be present to see someone write the check and hand it to the clerk, they can act on the clerk's statement afterwards. Police officers don't have to witness something to write citations -- they hardly ever witness an accident, and there is often no independent witnesses, but they're perfectly capable of issuing citations based on their investigation.

There's no doubt when he met with the sworn officer he did just what you said. No one ever talks themselves out of a charge -- notice they say anything you say can and will be used against you, they never say it may be used in your defense. No need to witness something when they admit to the facts. I don't know Forest Service procedures in detail, but the sworn officer likely had enough information to issue the citation with just the written warning. The voluntary conference gives them the opportunity to see if they can make a stronger or larger case. It also gives them a chance to see if they can catch the suspect in a lie (either in actuality, or simply mis-speaking due to stress or fatigue).

 

[captndavie]

The non-sworn forest service employee issued the warning. If he was a law enforcement officer, he would've had a citation book.

A parallel would be passing a bad check to a store clerk. The police officer doesn't have to be present to see someone write the check and hand it to the clerk, they can act on the clerk's statement afterwards. Police officers don't have to witness something to write citations -- they hardly ever witness an accident, and there is often no independent witnesses, but they're perfectly capable of issuing citations based on their investigation.

The Forest Service employee witnessed the event. It is not like it was Joe Blow off the street ratting you out and its your word against his. They witnessed it in the act = BUSTED!

 

[tomtom-blue]

Update, how the court appearance went.

Hi mates,
Just quick update for anyone that originally followed this thread re 2nd wood permit violation.
Now 4-months later, I had a court appearance on Jan 23rd in federal court at San Diego. There was no judge in attendance. Just approx 30 defendants and 7-8 court appointed defense attorneys. Each defendant counseled with an attorney that then presented to the court clerk a plea-bargain solution (if you were in agreement to the solution offered).

Seemed most folks were there for minor things like speeding tickets on the navy base etc. I waited 2-hours for my counsel session. In my case the USFS law enforcement officer for my citations was there in court. I talked about what happened with my attorney and I presented him a statement I had prepared for a judge. He said to me then..."Let me get you out of this". Waited while he negotiated with the USFS officer.

I had 2-citations (cutting & transporting wood). I was given this option:
USFS would drop one of my citations and I would only have to pay the other ($125, paid online afterward). I would be banned form the national forest for 2-years (Cleveland National Forest, San Diego county). Just I will be allowed to drive thru the forest and if I choose, attend educational programs like university sponsored stargazing parties at a mtn top observatory, ranger lectures etc. Otherwise, I am to stay out of the national forest (no hiking, mtn biking, and never never any wood gear in my truck!)
Okay, I accepted this plea-bargain and was happy with outcome. Because this particular USFS officer was known to give big fines in the thousands of dollars and I didn't want that. I am lucky how this went. Am out of commercial firewood and in process of selling off all my gear. Might still keep my Stihl 046 for helping friends sometimes...

Hope this helps anyone out there searching for background info on court appearances for USFS wood violations. My advice: Use common sense, be careful, go by the rules of your wood permit and don't go beyond the expiration dates. I agree with some of the opinions re paying gov permits, not so worth the price. Here in S. Calif, there aren't many private landowner woodcutting opportunities in my area. So if you can find the private land option where you live--> it's really a better way to go. Wish all good luck. Thanks for all earlier advices given. Hope this helps, Tom T in S. Calif

 

[mountainmandan]

Thank you for the update. Good info since I use forest service permits for a small portion of my wood, but they are so much more laid back here.

One time a ranger comes up to see if I have a permit, I said, "sure let me get it". He says, "no, I believe you."

Another time I am talking to a ranger and he is talking saws, he liked my old mag collection. So he says if you can come back tomorrow, I will have dropped a bunch of dead trees along this certain road for you. (you can only take downed trees)

When I go to the office they are so nice and helpful. One time the computers were not working, and she got on the phone for quite some time to resolve the issue, she knew I drive a fair distance to buy the permit and did not want to waste a trip for me.

I only get a little of my wood from fed land, but it is handy since I am over there a lot, and if any new trees are down I take them.

Dan

 

[slowp]

Thank you for the update. Good info since I use forest service permits for a small portion of my wood, but they are so much more laid back here.

One time a ranger comes up to see if I have a permit, I said, "sure let me get it". He says, "no, I believe you."

Another time I am talking to a ranger and he is talking saws, he liked my old mag collection. So he says if you can come back tomorrow, I will have dropped a bunch of dead trees along this certain road for you. (you can only take downed trees)

When I go to the office they are so nice and helpful. One time the computers were not working, and she got on the phone for quite some time to resolve the issue, she knew I drive a fair distance to buy the permit and did not want to waste a trip for me.

I only get a little of my wood from fed land, but it is handy since I am over there a lot, and if any new trees are down I take them.

Dan

I bet you are polite to them, also. Having worked on the other end of things, there are some very rude woodcutters out there, and they tend to be remembered more than the polite ones. I'll not get political but one was in my face telling me my job was soon coming to an end. That started up when I got out of my pickup to mark some firewood. Guess what? I ran out of marking paint at that point, which was bad on my part, but I just couldn't stand that guy anymore.

I didn't write tickets, and my job was 90% checking on logging contracts, but I usually had a can of the firewood marking paint with me. Here, you can only cut down wood and if you are not on a road listed as good for cutting 100' on each side, or cutting blowdown that has fallen into the road, you can only cut what is marked with the secret yellow paint.

So, my paint could run out, yup, it really could. :msp_rolleyes: