Welcome to ArboristSite.com! Log in or Sign up to interact with the ArboristSite community.

ArboristSite.com Sponsors
 
 


  1. Please see this post Click Here Please ask questions if you have them!! I hope this is going to be great for us all.
    Dismiss Notice

Remove a fallen tree, both ends supported

Discussion in 'Homeowner Helper Forum' started by Mick, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Mick

    Mick ArboristSite Lurker

    Joined:
    May 10, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    London, ON
    Hi guys, glad i found this forum again. Love it that you have a special homeowner-helper-forum. I have a chainsaw safety course certificate, do occasional bush lot maintenance for the local Land Trust and trail maintenance for the Trail Hiking club. I have a real nice Stihl MS211, 35cc, 16" bar. I never work alone, wear all the correct protectice gear, and always carry a spare chain - and a spare of that nut that may have a habit of coming off.

    Virtually every cut that i have to make is to a fallen tree that is supported at both ends. Usually the root end is partially in-out of the ground and the top end is leaning into an adjacent tree; on the hiking trail it is typically leaning low over the trail. Most of our work in the course focused on how to fell a tree in an open space and how to buck when just one end is supported - you just had to determine the compression vs the tension side, quite straight forward.

    I usually spend some time clearing the area, examining the tree, trying to get an idea of best approach. Most of the time it works out but a couple of times i have had to extricate a pinched chain :(

    Anyway, i need to hear from you guys what is the correct approach, or what are the correct approaches, to these situations where it is supported at both ends. Would love to see some videos. Most of the ones i see are simple felling of a tall tree in open space or the usual stupid guy videos. I do not want to be that guy.

    I have a couple of wedges but have not tried using them.

    TIA,

    Mick
     
  2. Philbert

    Philbert Chainsaw Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,586
    Likes Received:
    14,581
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Mick,

    Every tree and every situation is different. Photos of specific situations help, but they don't tell us everything.

    Lots of good stuff in here:
    http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf06672805/pdf06672805dpi300.pdf
    Pages 41-45 especially relate to your question, with tension and compression: which USFS references as 'bind' - something that can pinch your saw.

    What these don't refer to is blow down trees standing back up when the root ball is still attached, and you take weight off of the top - can be a real surprise, and make the tree act differently than expected.

    Storm damaged trees can act differently than standing timber cut for firewood. Take small test cuts if you are unsure, and watch to see if they open or close as you cut. Wedges really help - practice using them, before you need them.

    Some interesting videos here (though they mostly apply to larger trees):
    http://www2.worksafebc.com/Publications/Multimedia/Videos.asp?ReportID=36885

    Philbert
     
    GrassGuerilla, old guy and derwoodii like this.
  3. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    21,550
    Likes Received:
    4,441
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    Making multiple cuts to relieve tension can help and reading compression and tension is site subjective. One thing I try to do is to have two saws because sooner or later you will get one stuck. So if your not routinely getting stuck your doing things right but yes use those wedges. I use wedges more for bucking than I do for felling because I normally have the tree pulled with a winch or rope puller. After its on the ground I routinely use wedges on larger sticks! Also it helps me to cut everything that is bindless before cutting things which may bind!
     
    Jakers, Philbert and derwoodii like this.
  4. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    21,550
    Likes Received:
    4,441
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    Another thing I have done on mainly ice loaded trees is: use my power pruner on cuts where the log might roll my way, it gets me 13 foot away from that action!
     
    Jakers and GrassGuerilla like this.
  5. derwoodii

    derwoodii Tree Freak

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,997
    Likes Received:
    17,119
    Location:
    Victoria Australia
    work out the trees tension gravity & dynamics then how to dismantle it and then have an escape route when it does not go as planed





    bet ya dint see that comimg
     
    TNTreeHugger likes this.
  6. square1

    square1 Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,512
    Wedges are useful to keep from pinching. A cant hook (or tractor hooked to a chain wrapped around the tree a couple times) will help in some situations to roll the tree off the stump once the two are separated. Both pieces of advice are based on the info you provided about using a 16" bar.

    The biggest part though is "usually spend some time clearing the area, examining the tree, trying to get an idea of best approach." :clap:
     
  7. Mick

    Mick ArboristSite Lurker

    Joined:
    May 10, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    London, ON
    Thank you for this. I'll study the links etc and come back with further questions if i need to.

    Mick
     
    Philbert likes this.
  8. murphy4trees

    murphy4trees Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,461
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    suburban Philadelphia, Pa
  9. Jackbnimble

    Jackbnimble ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    331
    Not really. I mean, I liked the way you got that dangerous work done without serious bodily harm and everything, BUT, did you HAVE to make it look that easy? Couldn't you have done a little acting for the sake of the aspiring boobs who would need at least 37 years to take those trees down? Hmmm? Did you Have to make it look like a walk in the park? Hmm? Did ya? Some law you'd break if you looked like were in the least bit scared out of your mind?
     
  10. murphy4trees

    murphy4trees Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,461
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    suburban Philadelphia, Pa
    You can do it too..
    just give it a try!

     
    ray benson and Jackbnimble like this.
  11. Jackbnimble

    Jackbnimble ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    331
    O, I know. No sweat. I can pour gasoline on myself and light a match, too.
     
    TNTreeHugger likes this.
  12. Marshy

    Marshy 285 Killa

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,404
    Likes Received:
    7,263
    Location:
    Mexico NY
    Always cut the compression wood first, then tension. That's the basic concept.
     
    Jackbnimble likes this.
  13. TNTreeHugger

    TNTreeHugger Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,847
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Location:
    USA
    Can I ask a potentially stupid question?
    Wouldn't it be easier and safer to get a bucket truck and cut from the top down? Or to remove the tree it is hung on?
     
    Jackbnimble likes this.
  14. BC WetCoast

    BC WetCoast Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    1,863
    Location:
    Vancouver
    If the bucket is accessible.
    The owner of the trees may not want the tree it's hung up on to have it removed.
    I think Murph did these trees as a demonstration.

    Easier and safer isn't necessarily faster and cheaper. Safety is acknowledging risk, assessing risk and managing risk. You said safer, which acknowledges that Murph's demo may actually be safe, but not necessarily the safest. In other words, the risk doing it Murph's way may be very low, but using a bucket the risk would be negligible. The decision maker (in this case the cutter) would have to decide if the level of risk is acceptable.
     
    Jackbnimble and TNTreeHugger like this.
  15. Jackbnimble

    Jackbnimble ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    331
    "You can do it too..
    just give it a try!"

    I get woozy on my tip toes and pass out on the first rung of a ladder.
     
    TNTreeHugger likes this.
  16. TNTreeHugger

    TNTreeHugger Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,847
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Location:
    USA
    What's a "plunge cut?"
    The tutorial videos I've watched said to Never cut with the rounded tip of the saw.
     
    Jakers and Jackbnimble like this.
  17. Jackbnimble

    Jackbnimble ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    387
    Likes Received:
    331
    1. Initial notch cut. 2. First a series of fanlike cuts
    First fulcrum Direction of fall . Second fan cut Second fulcrum 3. Second fan cut 4. Final felling fan cut; retreat quickly!
    To fell trees with a diameter exceeding the bar length: start with the notch cut, in about 1/3 of the tree diameter; finish with about three fanlike cuts, changing fulcrums as little as possible. 2. Second, speed up engine and press the bar nose against the wood, then slowly pivot the engine while continuing to press the bar nose. Never plunge the nose of the bar straight into the wood! Making a plunge or boring cut Figure 8.9
    1. First place the nose of the bar at an angle to the proposed bore.
    This is beyond the novice’s reach. Make a notch, as before. Each cut of the notch may require as many as two cuts to complete. You can do this by making one half of the upper notch cut on one side and then moving to the other side of the tree to complete the upper notch cut. Do the same with the horizontal notch cut. After the notch is formed, make a plunge-cut about an inch or two above the notch and on the opposite side of the wood that will form the hinge. Start the plunge-cut with the underside of the tip. When the bar has cut a few inches into the tree, straighten the saw to begin sawing straight inward from the tip of the bar. When your plunge-cut is about halfway into the tree and about twice the width of your guide bar, proceed to make the felling cut by sawing around the tree. Make a pivot with the tip of the guide bar in the center of the tree. Be careful not to cut into the hinge wood and be sure to insert your wedge or felling lever in plenty of time to force the tree in the right direction. If you use a felling lever, be careful not to hit it with your saw. If you use wedges, be sure to use plastic ones, or make your own from hard wood. To fell a tree with a diameter equal to or greater than twice the length of your guide bar, only one additional cut is necessary. This time the additional cut is in the notching operation and, in effect, cuts the hinge itself in half. Make the notch, as before. Now make a plunge-cut at the back of the notch, right in the center of the tree. The plunge-cut should be at least twice the width of the guide bar. Cutting a plunge at the back of the notch in this manner actually creates two hinges. Make another plunge-cut at one side of the trunk and on the felling-cut side of the hinge. The cut meets the plunge-cut that comes through the center of the notch. Continue the felling cut by sawing around the tree with the tip of the bar in the center of the trunk. Place your wedges or felling lever in plenty of time and be careful not to cut through the hinge.

    TNT HOT SOAKED HOT TOES, this info is from a book called Barnacle Parp's Chainsaw Guide. It includes illustrations that I couldn't copy. But, you should be able to get a sense what plunge cuts are for and how to make them.
     
    TNTreeHugger likes this.
  18. TNTreeHugger

    TNTreeHugger Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    May 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,847
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Location:
    USA
    It says "NEVER plunge the bar nose straight into the wood!"
    I still don't see how the guy in the video did his plunge cut - looked to me like he was using the tip of the saw.
    100-055-01 2.gif
     
  19. BC WetCoast

    BC WetCoast Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    1,863
    Location:
    Vancouver
    A plunge cut is exactly as it sounds, you plunge the saw into the tree. It is risky and tutorials for inexperienced people will tell you to avoid it. However, if you understand the forces at work, then you can plunge cut safely.

    The danger is using the upper quadrant of the end of the bar, that is from the centerline of the tip to the top of the saw. If this part catches, the saw can kick back. So if you are plunge cutting, you need to angle the saw so you are cutting in the lower quadrant of the tip.

    Hope that clarifies it.
     
    Jed1124 and TNTreeHugger like this.
  20. rwoods

    rwoods Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    3,551
    Location:
    Tennessee
    TNTH, you can see in the last video posted a series of three kickbacks which demonstrates that even a pro doesn't always avoid a kickback. Technically, you can't straight bore without using the upper quadrant. But when the bar is already deep into the cut it can pretty much only push the saw back as there is no room for it to swing. When you are starting the cut the bar is exposed and can swing into you. That is what the illustration you posted is emphasizing - use the lower quadrant until you are into the wood when boring.

    Ron
     
    TNTreeHugger likes this.

Share This Page