EPA letter to OWB mfgs

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tronsliver

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See the enclosed letter from the EPA to Central Boiler written a few weeks ago.









***Heavily edited due to poster's anti wood agenda****
 
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Interesting stuff.

The obvious question is what is your connection to the industry?
:agree2:
But what does that really mean to me? I just bought a Central Boiler 1450.
That's it I'm gonna sue Central Boiler for 4 cords of wood per year for the next 20 years :hmm3grin2orange:
4x20 =80 cords they owe me, but i would settle out of court for one lump sum of 60 cords:msp_biggrin:
 
First off I'd say not many guys with OWB's are buying all their firewood at least not at $200 per cord. Secondly, 13 cords is about what I burn per year heating 2 houses to 73 degrees. There's no way I could do it for $2600 using propane, NG, or electric. $4- 4,500 would be closer. Lastly, I enjoy playing with my "toys" to get my firewood, but hate paying heating bills.
 
I really don't see how they could test them anyway, There is no standard chunk of wood that reflects real world usage.

With that said, never used one, can't comment other than they seem to be just real big generic smoke dragons built with a big water jacket and some pumps. Thermal mass is good for storage, and the liquid good for moving heat around, but that doesn't address burning efficiency.

I just sorta assumed none of them were all that great efficiency-wise given the hugemongous massive quantities of wood guys here say they use to run one every year. The tradeoff seems to be you can use oddball big chunks, uglies, unsplittables, longish whole logs, less than primo wood, etc, whatever you can scrounge that normally would just lay there and rot or go to some dump or outside burn pile that gets you nothing back. That would be the only reason I might want one, not for wood burning efficiency, but for scrounging wood efficiency, and/or heating multiple buildings simultaneously.
 
I really don't see how they could test them anyway, There is no standard chunk of wood that reflects real world usage.

With that said, never used one, can't comment other than they seem to be just real big generic smoke dragons built with a big water jacket and some pumps. Thermal mass is good for storage, and the liquid good for moving heat around, but that doesn't address burning efficiency.

I just sorta assumed none of them were all that great efficiency-wise given the hugemongous massive quantities of wood guys here say they use to run one every year. The tradeoff seems to be you can use oddball big chunks, uglies, unsplittables, longish whole logs, less than primo wood, etc, whatever you can scrounge that normally would just lay there and rot or go to some dump or outside burn pile that gets you nothing back. That would be the only reason I might want one, not for wood burning efficiency, but for scrounging wood efficiency, and/or heating multiple buildings simultaneously.

No, but the testing methods for both wood stoves and OWB are seriously flawed. I believe the method for wood stoves still involves kiln-dried doug fir 2x4's which is hardly real world performance.
 
Hmmmm well that's a harsh one for a first post. But never the less objective. Later posts to turn the subject in a given direction to suit someones purpose could prove something else. And I see a good point in proving misadvertising and fraud with efficiency rates. The EPA told the manufactures to act on a valid point. Failing to do so have to give sanctions. And efficiency testing have been performed on all types of units in Europe for many years and there is no reason not to belive that it can be done very acurately given the tests are performed in a proper way.
I am in no way living in the US or pretending to know what good or bad things the EPA are doing. But I can't relate to not wanting the true eficiency figures on an appliance. If people want an inefficient smoke dragon so be it. But not wanting the true specs on an OWB or stove when available seems far out to me.

Motorsen
 
Nothing is perfect when it comes to EPA test methodologies and MFG claims...

EPA has been dragging its heels for years to close the loopholes in their tests, protocols and burning categories. There still is not a firm deadline although promulgation for next phase is rumoured for next year.

There are some who would rail against any gobermint interference in wood burning or many other topics for that matters. On the other hand, allowing MFG's to use 'puffery' (ie. Baloney) in their performance claim is not a solution either.

The consumer expect to read performance labels that are accurate and verifiable. Let's hope for the next round EPA comes through to protect the consumer and make it a plane playing field for all MFG's.

PS. I too would like to know this gentleman's background...
 
Hmmmm well that's a harsh one for a first post. But never the less objective. Later posts to turn the subject in a given direction to suit someones purpose could prove something else. And I see a good point in proving misadvertising and fraud with efficiency rates. The EPA told the manufactures to act on a valid point. Failing to do so have to give sanctions. And efficiency testing have been performed on all types of units in Europe for many years and there is no reason not to belive that it can be done very acurately given the tests are performed in a proper way.
I am in no way living in the US or pretending to know what good or bad things the EPA are doing. But I can't relate to not wanting the true eficiency figures on an appliance. If people want an inefficient smoke dragon so be it. But not wanting the true specs on an OWB or stove when available seems far out to me.

Motorsen

Here is how our government works, in a nutshell, broadly speaking. Unelected bureaucrats "regulate" things, said regulations have color of "law".

These regulators retire with nice fat pensions, and go to work in the industries they were regulating, examples, food and drug, go to work for big pharmcos, treasury or securities and exchange money regulators go to work for fatcat too big to fail banks or brokerages, etc.

Pick something, any place there is gov organization, and that's what happens.

EPA was sorely needed, it really was, but..now...sorta nutso and some very very strange things happen, and it always costs a LOT to have them happen.

Look at saws, a main focus of this site. EPA regs are to the point they have to ship saws that in real world use will just burn up shortly, necessitating full replacement, with no observations of the pollution required to do this full replacement. Unless *someone* puts a real tune on these small engines, most are not going to last long.

We have corn liquor in the gasoline here, rank fuel, has wrecked any number of machines, again, causes more pollution that it cures, plus is leading to loss of farmland as they are doing again what caused the big loss of topsoil in the dustbowl years, stripping fields of border cover to squeeze out that last acre to grow corn, every time it rains hard, topsoil washes away, or if drought, topsoil blows away., not good for the environment, plus, raises cost of food and other things. Less pollution in the air? Debateable, because it takes more fuel to go from A to B.

On and on.

Always gets down to who is making a megabuck on something, follow the money. some way, somehow, some people make a ton because of new regulations and laws.

What I am saying is, it appears to be only marginally science based, and more political and economic. I mean "carbon credits", and taxes on carbon, on a carbon based life form planet???? Our regulations call carbon dioxide as a harmful pollutant, that needs laws and regulations, I mean egads it is what we exhale..take it from there...they have policies that restrict , severely restrict, logging thinning and maintaining roads in huge areas of forest, yet..these policies lead to hugemongous forest fires which release..millions of tons of this "harmful" gas, cause erosion, silt the streams, etc and waste all that wood and potential energy. and kill off endangered species, the same ones that in some cases were the reason to restrict use of the forests in the first place, and coincidently, kill jobs.....hmm...

What are they "protecting" again?

Just ask, who profits?, and follow the money.
 
What are they "protecting" again?

Just ask, who profits?, and follow the money.

+1

and dont think this is an American phenomenon only... Worldwide people are complaining about the same things.

Special interests (big business) will push their agenda even if it kills us. All the while telling us "its good for you!"
 
Interesting stuff.

The obvious question is what is your connection to the industry?

The more things I googled in his posts, the more I believe he's against it.

From a page on one site I found his "study" on:

Don’t burn wood, period. Don’t burn
wood in an Outdoor Wood Boiler or an
indoor wood stove. You can make a dif-
ference today by stopping burning wood.

I'm inclined to push the ban button on him, but I'd sure like to see if he replies.

I'd also like to see some good links to the information in his first post. I'm tired of digging through crap like I showed above trying to find hard information.

Also, for those of you who didn't read the letter he added in the first post, it was addressed to Central Boiler, but it was in fact a form letter sent to all manufacturers who used the same test procedure, and was not singling out one manufacturer.
 
Well if the gentleman is against wood burning he is entitled to his opinions. But he should come right out and say so, then we can have an intelligent debate on the subject.

So Mr. Tron... If you feel strongly about the matter, could you please share with us some of your thoughts on this topic?
 
The efficiency "rating" of any firebox is mostly bogus hoopla. Really the "ratings" are only useful when comparing one to another... and then, only marginally so. And "efficiency" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everyone; as I've posted before... I measure "efficiency" by how warm my house is, not by how long the burn time is or how much smoke exits the chimney. I've also used this as an example before; I can make my old 4x4 pickup as fuel "efficient" as any new car... if I drive it 25 MPH! There's a whole lot more to "efficiency" than the amount of fuel used... what good is 45 MPG if I'm late for everything, or need to spend three times the hours on the road?? Just as, what good is 90% fuel "efficiency" in a wood-fired appliance if it doesn't make enough heat, fast enough, to maintain the temperature in your house over the long-haul??

I seriously doubt anyone, who has half an idea about what they're doing, is only getting 30% heating "efficiency" from their OWB... just as I seriously doubt anyone is getting 90% heating "efficiency" from their new-fangled, EPA compliant wood stove. I'm bettin' that anyone with half a clue, using any sort of wood-fired appliance, is getting something closer to the middle of those two extremes... and I'm bettin' (talking heating "efficiency") the difference between any of them being run properly (smoke-dragon to new-fangled) ain't near as much as some would like to believe. That's not ignoring the advantages to certain designs... or the disadvantages... every gain in something is a loss in something else... that's just the way it works. If'n ya' wanna' make more power faster, ya' haf'ta burn more fuel at lower "efficiency"... it's a trade-off, always has been, always will be. The trick is balancing the "efficiency" vs. power/fuel consumption to your needs... it's always been that way, and no new government test or regulation can change the laws of nature.
 
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Well I am thinking that this guy has an axe to grind so I go and use the magic search tool and came up with this.

New rules go into effect for wood-fired boilers - Local News Updates - The Boston Globe

Down a way in the comments of the article I run into.

I applaud Mass for protecting their citizens. Outside Wood Boilers put out 22 times more pollution than a standard wood burner and most have a chimney height 10 feet off the ground. No one has the right to harm their neighbors to save a buck. I too am a veteran but it doesn't give me a right to cause a nuisance or harm others. To those thinking about moving you may want to do your homework, OWB's are being banned or severely restricted either by state government or local communities across the U.S.
Posted by tronsliver December 28, 08 04:40 PM

Same guy? I don't know but folks seem to keep their handle as they move around.

I also pulled the EPA qualification info from the Burnwise site.
Page 44 section 5 talks about the hangtags and why they might be changed. In my eyes the first post jives with that. The EPA found that they had a problem with the test data and found the test method flawed so they rescinded that portion of the tag. The original poster seems to be stumping as if the entire program was a sham.

If the guy is cranky because he just found out that his OWB burned a ton more wood than he though it was going to it's his own fault. One quick search here could have told him that if you want to run a OWB you had better start cutting.
 
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