EPA letter to OWB mfgs

[Fyrebug]

This one is gonna get recycled into new electrons in about 10 hours.

Mmmm... Wonder how many BTU's in a pound of electron?

 

[NSMaple1]

I'm not sure why a banning or a thread kill is needed. I didn't see anything offensive, unless I missed it, and like anything else read on a forum - people can take what they read and persue/discuss further, or just ignore. I thought it was decent discussion material as far as forum stuff goes...

 

[mikefunaro]

Einstein worked that math for that over 100 years ago and it's a hell of a bunch.

An electron is like 1/1800 of a proton in weight, and it takes 6.02 x 10^23 protons to make a gram, and then 453.6 grams to make a pound so... A LOT probably

 

[Mike from Maine]

If you do a google search with the OP's handle: 'tronsliver woodburning' you can see a few comments by someone with same username.

After reading a few of the comments I would say they have an agenda against wood burners. IDK but tone of the comments kind sounds like a lawyer talk to me. Along with the math spelling out how much the consumer/"victim" has lost thanks to CB's efficiency claims make me think LAWYER looking to start a class action against the biggest OWB manufacturer.

I may be way off base. Maybe the OP is just neighbors to someone that has a smoke dragon.

 

[Fyrebug]

An electron is like 1/1800 of a proton in weight, and it takes 6.02 x 10^23 protons to make a gram, and then 453.6 grams to make a pound so... A LOT probably

And there, all along I thought we were all a bunch of chainsaw wielding, Coors Lite guzzling, backie chewing, cousin' marryin', gun totin', antlers on hood of pick-up truck red-necks...

What a great forum this is!

We can all give and take and have fun doing it...

 

[Cheesecutter]

Along with the math spelling out how much the consumer/"victim" has lost thanks to CB's efficiency claims make me think LAWYER looking to start a class action against the biggest OWB manufacturer.

It goes to show "figures lie and liars figure".

 

[Fyrebug]

I think whatever the user's motives are, he makes some good points. Since its open to a 'reasonable' debate (Spidey you hear me?) I don't think there's any harm in letting this post go.

I'm no expert at OWB. The user's point is in misleading advertisement. As Steve pointed out... It's a global problem on all products and industries. Sure it needs to be cleaned up. You would think it would be easy enough for EPA to issue some new rules to clarify labelling. But for whatever reasons, It takes years and with so many compromise it may be toothless. We'll have to see.

The other side of the equation is: How big is OWB pollution problem anyway? I dont think EPA or anybody else has quantified it. But in the overall North American Air shed I would think its a drop in the bucket. Verifiable data shows the biggest particulate emission problem in North America comes from forest fires. I think the last statistics quoted from Environment Canada was over 98% particulate from wood burning comes from from forest fires.

However, if your child has severe asthma and the next door neighbour with the OWB insist on being an idiot and burn all sorts of garbage then this is a huge problem for you. I wouldn't put up with it either.

However, no amount of wood burning technology or accurate labeling can clean that up. While this problem can occur with wood stoves as well it is typically worse for OWB. If you give a guy with a few acres an OWB a fire box the size of a small apartment, what do you think he'll burn in it? Nothing but well seasoned splits? Many of them do. There's the odd one who cant resist shoving entire green trees in there, rubber boots, garbage and the recently deceased mother in law...

So the question is... How do you fix that?

 

[zogger]

I think whatever the user's motives are, he makes some good points. Since its open to a 'reasonable' debate (Spidey you hear me?) I don't think there's any harm in letting this post go.

I'm no expert at OWB. The user's point is in misleading advertisement. As Steve pointed out... It's a global problem on all products and industries. Sure it needs to be cleaned up. You would think it would be easy enough for EPA to issue some new rules to clarify labelling. But for whatever reasons, It takes years and with so many compromise it may be toothless. We'll have to see.

The other side of the equation is: How big is OWB pollution problem anyway? I dont think EPA or anybody else has quantified it. But in the overall North American Air shed I would think its a drop in the bucket. Verifiable data shows the biggest particulate emission problem in North America comes from forest fires. I think the last statistics quoted from Environment Canada was over 98% particulate from wood burning comes from from forest fires.

However, if your child has severe asthma and the next door neighbour with the OWB insist on being an idiot and burn all sorts of garbage then this is a huge problem for you. I wouldn't put up with it either.

However, no amount of wood burning technology or accurate labeling can clean that up. While this problem can occur with wood stoves as well it is typically worse for OWB. If you give a guy with a few acres an OWB a fire box the size of a small apartment, what do you think he'll burn in it? Nothing but well seasoned splits? Many of them do. There's the odd one who cant resist shoving entire green trees in there, rubber boots, garbage and the recently deceased mother in law...

So the question is... How do you fix that?

ski mask, gloves, and a louisville slugger

 

[spike60]

I'm not sure why a banning or a thread kill is needed. I didn't see anything offensive, unless I missed it, and like anything else read on a forum - people can take what they read and persue/discuss further, or just ignore. I thought it was decent discussion material as far as forum stuff goes...

Not necessarily, and I'm surprised to see this thread is still alive this morning.

First, this forum is a kind of community, and I think for someone to open up with something like that is a bit out of line. I'm not necessarily saying you have to pay your dues, but I do think you have to establish some credibility before posting something like that. And furthermore, it seemed more like a press release than a post. So, IMO Steve should have gone with his gut feeling and kicked the soapbox out from under this guy.

 

[olyman]

Please consider leaving this thread up and running as it does contain very good information, IMO.

steve is MORE than capable of making the correct decision,,with zero help....

 

[Butch(OH)]

Not necessarily, and I'm surprised to see this thread is still alive this morning.

First, this forum is a kind of community, and I think for someone to open up with something like that is a bit out of line. I'm not necessarily saying you have to pay your dues, but I do think you have to establish some credibility before posting something like that. And furthermore, it seemed more like a press release than a post. So, IMO Steve should have gone with his gut feeling and kicked the soapbox out from under this guy.

Said it better than I could.

While it is admittedly easier for me to say boot the %$^ when I disagree with the poster my problem with the guy is he makes the OWB builder out to be some sort of crook when the fact of the matter is they used the methods they are forced to use by the EPA. Now the EPA has admitted that there are flaws. As somebody who has to deal with the EPA on a daily basis I understand what Central Boiler and the other Mfgs go through,,if a person doesn't deal with the EPA then they can make things out to be what they wish as this guy did. What people need to understand is no matter what your opinion of OWBS, or this thread is guys like him are THE enemy of us wood burners no matter what your burning. They have their own sites to stew in, stay the H--- of of "ours" is my opinion..
I can tell ya'll another thing, If the efficiency ratings of the OWBs is off that far so are the indoor stoves, I have used both and know what I chucked in them to heat the same areas.

Told you Spike said it better than me,, LOL

 

[Whitespider]

So the question is... How do you fix that?

Some communities already have... they've banned the OWB within the city limits, but that's not the same as a Federal agency. Communities, cities, townships, etc. are not bound by Constitutional restrictions in the same way a Federal entity is supposed to be. If you choose to live in a township or city, you automatically surrender some "liberties" that rural folks retain... it-is-what-it-is and as it should be. You are still at "liberty" to move to a community with ordinances more to your liking, or just "go rural" if you choose. But the EPA, or for that matter any part of Federal government, is not granted authority by the Constitution to "regulate" OWB's (or any wood-fired appliance) for personal use. The Feds have Constitutional authority to "regulate interstate commerce", not the design or type of wood burners individual citizens use (but the state or city does, depending on the State Constitution)... the EPA over-stepped it's authority years ago, the time has come to abolish the EPA (and several other Federal agencies).

Sorry, I'll shut-up now... not trying to go "political", just pointing out the obvious (to me) legal and Constitutional facts related to wood-fired appliances and this thread.

 

[Kevin in Ohio]

That is VERY true and people don't hear or see the craziness of agencies that get too much authority behind them. What starts out as a good idea spirals out of control and common sense is lost. I'll relay a few things that happened to us.

I worked at an Agricultural spray outfit when the EPA regs started. Had to carry three liscences (read fees) and take a bunch of training courses with tests. They then decided there needed to be spill protection to protect ground water and such. Admittedly, a good idea. The problem was they gave a date which everyone should have it done by with very vague guidelines of what they wanted. My employer drug his feet as he said he knew what would happen and he was right, The corporate companys built earthen dikes with sumps, moved their tanks around, replumbed and were okay. Suddenly someone in EPA decides that isn't the best and changes the requirements and it spirals from there. No grandfather or money compensation for them just because of EPAS Mess up.

During this time we had another local outfit be vandalized. Someone came in at night and opened the valves on their liquid fertilizer tanks. EPA fined the company and in the fines was a "Enviromental fine" They were fined BIG money for fish kill. Runoff went into a ditch, which they called a creek, and ran into the owners pond a few miles away. The shiners were dead in the ditch, which happens every year due to dry times but his pond was fine with no floaters. EPA should fine God or Mother nature every year as well to be fair.

Another good one is HAZMAT and truck placarding. When going through the EPA required/sponsored course it was relayed to us that everything must carry the correct placards of whats on board. Again, not a bad idea. The problem was if it IS placarded hazardous and your involved in a wreck, local emergency crews have to stand by and watch you die till an "official" HAZMAT crew arrives. At that time they said they fine AND jailed EMT's and firefighters who pulled a driver from a burning truck. It may have changed since then but that was crazy to me. I'm sure they have to all go through courses and get certified, $$$$$$, in order to protect and serve.

Like you said, Common sense gets lost and thinking things through WITH standards BEFORE making regs/standards is lost anymore. I hope it has changed but it looks like it has only gotten worse.

 

[Whitespider]

Oh it has gotten worse... much, much worse.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Please consider leaving this thread up and running as it does contain very good information, IMO.

Done. I pretty much gutted the first post, and deleted the OP's other one. A couple others I edited for clarity, or to remove the OP's deleted information. Everything else is intact, and will stay that way.

L-O-L !!
Well that's hardly fair Steve... I mean, c'mon man... after-all, you let me rant on about my views.

Although, now that I think about it, I have been sent to Banned Camp a few times... and I have had a few of my posts deleted also.
Hmmmmm...??? I'm not a short-timer am I?? :msp_scared:

Bunned.

 

[olyman]

Done. I pretty much gutted the first post, and deleted the OP's other one. A couple others I edited for clarity, or to remove the OP's deleted information. Everything else is intact, and will stay that way.



Bunned.

bunned?? and what flavor of buns was he eating......cinnamon???? thanks for being civil in this thread...

 

[brenndatomu]

Unfortunately AS is gettin a bit of a black eye on the hearth forum for banning Mr (Mrs?) Tron. Their discussion is still going strong, just saying. I'm not a member there, just lurking, and this is just FYI. FWIW...

BTW, he hasn't fessed up his agenda yet...prolly won't.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Unfortunately AS is gettin a bit of a black eye on the hearth forum for banning Mr (Mrs?) Tron. Their discussion is still going strong, just saying. I'm not a member there, just lurking, and this is just FYI. FWIW...

BTW, he hasn't fessed up his agenda yet...prolly won't.

I saw that. I'm registered over there, with about 3 posts. I thought about going in and saying something. Then I decided that they can think what they want. I'll wait here.

 

[bowtechmadman]

My Woodmaster boiler is 100% efficient. It burns 100% of my woodpile every winter, and I made the choice to throw every stick in it. That choice is what I appreciate and I feel for those that don't have that choice!

 

[zogger]

My Woodmaster boiler is 100% efficient. It burns 100% of my woodpile every winter, and I made the choice to throw every stick in it. That choice is what I appreciate and I feel for those that don't have that choice!

It is just like driving on the road man. Some people drive responsibly and follow common sense rules and the laws, others think they are on a nascar track, rules/speed limits don't apply to them, fast land changes and not staying inside yellow lines don't apply to them, they are manly men or womanly women and can "handle their liquor" good enough to drive, turn signals are for wimps, "I'll fix those brakes next week".., "why, I got me 4wd, which means I can go as fast as I want on ten inches of snow over black ice"...yada yada.... etc.

Big OWBS that can fit old tires, garbage, green wet wood, railroad tie chunks (ha, telephone poles), household garbage, animal carcasses, old crankcase oil, whatever..well..it happens. Lets don't be in denial of that in the big picture, and I am not pointing fingers at anyone here, just sayin'. Downwind people don't appreciate it, and it has happened enough that communities and whatnot are wanting to ban them.

So it goes, that's society. Just toooo tempting and convenient with that big door and firebox and being outside and not inside the house to cram things in there that shouldn't be in there, and yes, I would even consider wet wood to not be suitable for burning, in anything.

Plus like I said before, follow the money, wood heat (and otherr forms of energy independence like residentiaol solar, etc.,) can not be made a monopoly or cartel very easily.

zI was just reading an article the other day put out by I think the edison institute? Article about their studies. Basically..they are so used to having local monopolies and steady no brainer easy money coming in, that "disruptive technology" has snuck up on them, solar panels and good quality batteries (for just one example) are now cheap enough (could be, they threw emergency tariffs at impiorts recently...) that millions of people could sorta slide away from being grid tied completely, perhaps just leaving the grid tie as the backup and not the primary. their own stufdy, not from some "green" place.

Wood, although the oldest form of storable and transferable energy, is undergoing a renaissance and can be classified as disruptive technology today, and modern OWBs that can provide heat and hot water to multiple buildings..ehh..those big traditional energy companies do not like this....they were real successful the last century getting a lot of people off of wood and local sourced cheap coal and into fuel oil/propane/natgas/electric. they can cartel price that stuff. They dig these little local monopolies. Nice checks keep rolling in....they don't like alternative fuel sources and gear or heaven forbid, actual true adequate building insulation.


A return to wood heat is the fastest change in heating now..

Small story, eary 70s I helped with some ..it is called in the community.."guerrilla" alt energy installs, local areas would not "permit" it..well, the consensus was !#%$^%^## 'em! They would "permit" a fuel generator but not solar panels or wind chargers....disruptive technology..threat to cartels.

Note: above ^^^^ is not politics for the purposes of this post! This is history and economics as it applies to technolgy....I have not referred to any politician or political party or election.