Recommendations for OWB

[chaikwa]

After the last oil delivery of $3800 that will only take us to mid-January if it stays mild, I have finally convinced my business partner with whom I share this farm with, that an OWB makes sense!

So, what kind do you have/like and why?

I've done a LOT of reading about almost all of them here and elsewhere and am still just as confused as I was before. Well, not really, some things are a little clearer, but there's still a ton of conflicting information out there.

Hawken is in my backyard, but there are some horror stories floating around that worry me a little, and very little info from people that own them who report on their likes and dislikes. Their rep called me back the next day after calling the company and is willing to come out to my site as soon as I call him this week.

I like the design of the Portage and Main units, and I've read good things about them, but the only local rep made a big issue about coming out to my site for a visit. If someone doesn't want to drive an hour to make a $15,000 sale, I can only imagine what would happen if I had a problem where I NEEDED someone to come out.

The Woodmaster guy was quick to respond, came out within a day, pointed out the good and bad of his product, didn't bash other makes and was generally knowledgable about the product. I had a quote from him in about a week.

The CB guy came out a week after calling him when he 'had the time', told me the CB is absolutely the best on the market, seemed very knowledgeable about the product and was a nice guy, but I'm STILL waiting on a qoute almost 3 weeks later.

3 of my friends have the CB units and are happy with them, but coming from a welding and fabrication background, I have reservations about a square firebox. (Before anyone asks, altho I could, I don't have the desire to make my own. I'd rather have something that works right out of the box and with a warranty)

I DO know I don't want one with a stainless firebox.

I'm heating a 5500sf house with minimal insulation and a seperate building with office/apartment/training center with about 4500sf and high ceilings, so roughly 10,000sf total.

I'm all ears!

 

[Dogsout]

I have and OWB but it is a local company so I can't help you there. In you post I see you have reservations with a square firebox. I think this is the first time that I have seen someone comment about this and I was wondering what do you see going wrong with a square box as opposed to a round one? Thanks.

 

[12vdzl]

Im going on my 7th season with my hawken he2100. No problems as of yet. If I were to do it over again I would save up more coin and go with a portage and main or indoor gasser.


Good luck with your choice.

 

[leon]

boiler et. al.

After the last oil delivery of $3800 that will only take us to mid-January if it stays mild, I have finally convinced my business partner with whom I share this farm with, that an OWB makes sense!

So, what kind do you have/like and why?

I've done a LOT of reading about almost all of them here and elsewhere and am still just as confused as I was before. Well, not really, some things are a little clearer, but there's still a ton of conflicting information out there.

Hawken is in my backyard, but there are some horror stories floating around that worry me a little, and very little info from people that own them who report on their likes and dislikes. Their rep called me back the next day after calling the company and is willing to come out to my site as soon as I call him this week.

I like the design of the Portage and Main units, and I've read good things about them, but the only local rep made a big issue about coming out to my site for a visit. If someone doesn't want to drive an hour to make a $15,000 sale, I can only imagine what would happen if I had a problem where I NEEDED someone to come out.

The Woodmaster guy was quick to respond, came out within a day, pointed out the good and bad of his product, didn't bash other makes and was generally knowledgable about the product. I had a quote from him in about a week.

The CB guy came out a week after calling him when he 'had the time', told me the CB is absolutely the best on the market, seemed very knowledgeable about the product and was a nice guy, but I'm STILL waiting on a qoute almost 3 weeks later.

3 of my friends have the CB units and are happy with them, but coming from a welding and fabrication background, I have reservations about a square firebox. (Before anyone asks, altho I could, I don't have the desire to make my own. I'd rather have something that works right out of the box and with a warranty)

I DO know I don't want one with a stainless firebox.

I'm heating a 5500sf house with minimal insulation and a seperate building with office/apartment/training center with about 4500sf and high ceilings, so roughly 10,000sf total.

I'm all ears!

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Don't waste your money or your time.
Look at the Harman wood and coal boiler with
42 gallons capacity for what you need.

What you can do is purchase the Harman with the
atmosperic pressure expansion tank option and purchase
a good steel storage tank for 1-2,000 gallons of water and
insulate the tank for thermal mass.

The more water you have the more heat you will have and the
easier it will be for you to maintain even temperatures as the boiler will
be firing flat out at all times and not losing any heat energy from smoking
when the system is shut down AND you will have a more efficient burn to
begin with which will also provide you with your domestic hot water THE YEAR ROUND TOO.

For the money you wish to spend the Harman and a new 2,000 gallon tank that
would be insulated by you using fiberglass batting and chicken wire to
hold it in place.

 

[chaikwa]

In you post I see you have reservations with a square firebox. I think this is the first time that I have seen someone comment about this and I was wondering what do you see going wrong with a square box as opposed to a round one? Thanks.

Nothing wrong really, but generally speaking, 'square' means more seams and more welds which can be the weakest point of a fabricated structure if they're not prepared and welded properly. The edges of square corners also lend themselves as a place for corrosion to form. With that said, there are an awful lot of boilers out there with square fire boxes and many years of service, my friends' is one of them, so I guess it's just a personal preference more than anything.

Don't waste your money or your time. Look at the Harman wood and coal boiler with 42 gallons capacity for what you need.

Thanks for your reply, but like I said, I want something that's tried and sort of proven that I don't have to experiment with to get it to work. And to be honest, I really don't care how efficient it is. I have a tree service that brings me more wood than me and 5 other people could ever use in a lifetime, plus 40 acres of woodlot that needs a thinning according to the management plan.

 

[leon]

harmon boiler

Nothing wrong really, but generally speaking, 'square' means more seams and more welds which can be the weakest point of a fabricated structure if they're not prepared and welded properly. The edges of square corners also lend themselves as a place for corrosion to form. With that said, there are an awful lot of boilers out there with square fire boxes and many years of service, my friends' is one of them, so I guess it's just a personal preference more than anything.

Thanks for your reply, but like I said, I want something that's tried and sort of proven that I don't have to experiment with to get it to work. And to be honest, I really don't care how efficient it is. I have a tree service that brings me more wood than me and 5 other people could ever use in a lifetime, plus 40 acres of woodlot that needs a thinning according to the management plan.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The Harmon Boilers, furnaces, coal and wood pellet stokers
have been around longer than the outdoor boiler market.

The wood and coal boilers are certified for steam.

These boilers have been tried and proven and are certified for steam.


You have to understand that the benefit of having a large
thermal mass of water will be of greater benefit to you.

Keeping hot fire will reduce smoke to a bare minimum and
will be much more efficient than an outdoor boiler BECAUSE OF THE THERMAL MASS OF WATER.
opcorn:




You can have all the wood you will ever need BUT you will still
need to feed the outdoor boiler because it has low water capacity
where heating 1,000-2,000 gallons permits you to have and create
a huge thermal mass that will require less wood to heat up the total
amount of water 10 degrees creating 1-2000 gallons of water/thermal
mass that will simply shed its thermal mass back into your home heating
and domestic water needs forever.

We have an AS member here that heats his farm with a huge wood boiler
feeding it with a skid steer when needed and he is very happy with his
system as he has a huge amount of water/thermal mass

 

[jrider]

In my second season with the Portage and Main Optimizer 250 and couldn't be happier. Unit was $11,500. I have just under $14,000 into everything. Payback time for me will be about 3.5 seasons.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Your concerns with the square design were also mine and led me to a Woodmaster which we have operated with 0 problems for 6 years. In fairness CB has little problems with the firebox. I do lke the forced draft on the WM as compared to the natural draft on a CB as there is less smoke.

 

[chaikwa]

Your concerns with the square design were also mine and led me to a Woodmaster which we have operated with 0 problems for 6 years. In fairness CB has little problems with the firebox. I do lke the forced draft on the WM as compared to the natural draft on a CB as there is less smoke.

I found that CB offers a forced draft fan as an option, but states that their boiler "works best on natural draft, unlike the competition that uses a draft fan". Statements like that make me wonder about the integrity of a manufacturer, mainly because if they HAVE found natural draft to be the best, then why offer a fan at ALL? 2 of my friends have CB's, one with the fan, one without, and they both love them. I'm not bashing CB in any way and may end up with one myself, but I NEED to explore all these inconsistencies and hear from other people so I can sleep at night! :msp_rolleyes: My friend with the natural draft CB has had his for over 12 years with 0 problems, so it kinda makes me wonder about my philosophy about square corners!

 

[greendohn]

I installed a Woodmaster in '07 for a few reasons. The round fire box was one of them. The simplicity of only 1 solenoid for the blower ass. and the running of the H2O pump being the only moving parts with the digital controls. Combined the simplistic design with a 3rd generation family owned furnace shop who's been selling the things since the early/mid 90's I was sold. I know of two guys locally with the Hardy and both have had trouble with the various solenoids for temp control failing,,the under fire draft sticking open,boiling all the h2O off,,and the stainless. The boiler plate/mild steel construction in boiler applications have been used since the industrial revolution, and is still used a lot today. NOT A PISSING MATCH!! Just stating why I didn't choose a Hardy. Two guys I know with Central units seemed to be very pleased w/o any problems, just wasn't a well established dealer close. I do wish I had the money to upgrade to a hi-efficiency unit as mine is a greedy-hungry pig and smokes like a coal burning train, especially with less than seasoned wood.

 

[chaikwa]

well established dealer close[/B].

That's something I'm looking at too. If whatever I buy has a problem that can't be resolved with a phone call, I want to know that someone will be able to come out. It has simply amazed me that better than 2/3rds of the dealers I've called have either refused or at least hesitated to come out, look at what I'm trying to heat and make a recommendation. I'm of the opinion that if someone is going to spend 15 grand with me, you bet your butt I'll make a trip to their property if that's what they want!

As far as the high efficiency units go, I'd love to have one, but I don't think it would be worth my effort to split the wood up into small pieces, then pay close attention to the moisture content in order to burn it. I have no illusions that burning big, round, green pieces will be in my best interest, but with the amount of varied wood the tree company brings me, the less I have to handle it, the better.

greendohn, just curious; how does your wood useage compare to those people you know that have CB's? Maybe thier heating requirements aren't close to yours so you can't really compare this way, but I'm wondering if there's really a difference in the amount of wood used to produce the same amount of heat from one manufacturer to another.

 

[beerman6]

Question everything about the "warranty"

2 weeks in my first season(2005) with a Global Hydronics GH100 the pump started squealing,called the dealer.
"you need to take the pump off and send it to the manufacturer and they will determine what they will do"

I knew I was screwed at that point so I bought a pump to keep as a back-up.

3rd season started leaking at the back where the draft tubes pass thru to the fire box.(dealer is out of business now)After contacting Global they told me to take pics and they would tell me how to proceed.Not sure how or why but somebody from Hawken took over and I was told to hire somebody to weld it up and they would cover up to $300.00 :msp_rolleyes:

I did it myself and they sent me a check for like $182 and told me that my "warranty" was done.

Had one of the solenoids stick open and boil all of the water out ,not really a big deal

This year I noticed a very small leak in the same area as before,so it's time to get out the welder.

 

[greendohn]

That's something I'm looking at too. If whatever I buy has a problem that can't be resolved with a phone call, I want to know that someone will be able to come out. It has simply amazed me that better than 2/3rds of the dealers I've called have either refused or at least hesitated to come out, look at what I'm trying to heat and make a recommendation. I'm of the opinion that if someone is going to spend 15 grand with me, you bet your butt I'll make a trip to their property if that's what they want!

I agree!

As far as the high efficiency units go, I'd love to have one, but I don't think it would be worth my effort to split the wood up into small pieces, then pay close attention to the moisture content in order to burn it. I have no illusions that burning big, round, green pieces will be in my best interest, but with the amount of varied wood the tree company brings me, the less I have to handle it, the better.

I agree with you, I like the 'less handling and bigger wood" concept. The seasoned wood wouldn't be much concern to me if I didn't live in a small rural community. I'm taking my stack up much higher in the near future and the seasoned wood won't be as much a concern to me then. Others will disagree about the big green fire wood, but, we're dealing with a fan forced fire, it'll burn about anything you throw at it! and creosote/flu fires are really of little concern. Even with seasoned wood, the system is air tight and creosote starts to develop as soon as the blower shuts off seasoned wood or not. This info came from guys I know running the OWB I referenced in my earlier post, both of the other brands. It'll look like a propane torch burning,,,nature of the beast.

greendohn, just curious; how does your wood useage compare to those people you know that have CB's? Maybe thier heating requirements aren't close to yours so you can't really compare this way, but I'm wondering if there's really a difference in the amount of wood used to produce the same amount of heat from one manufacturer to another.

The "Turner" brothers and the "Hawger" boy all three have the CB units and live in 100+ year old, 2 story brick homes,,can't make a comparison to my use. "Crooked Charlie", who lives in a modern construction, ?2k-3k? sq. ft. home uses the Hardy unit,,cries the blue river over his wood use. Again, no comparo,,he has the most maintenance issues,,his unit is probably too small for his app. The only other guy I know, an acquaintance really, has a Hardy and his home is similar to mine also heats his ?40x60? tobacco shed. Sorry, not much help.

I don't know any more, as I haven't looked into OWB since my purchase, if the other units have more than one accommodation for pumps. I really liked the idea of running two different pumps, on two different circuits offered on the Woodmaster. ie,,Home heating on one circuit, full time. Another circuit running on/off for an out building if I so desire with out disrupting the home heating. Again, I don't know. The CB units may have offered this feature back when I was shopping, however, the dealer was so far north of me, I did very little research on them.

 

[Blazin]

Central boiler 5648 with natural draft. I heat 2 houses, a garage, and DHW.... roughly 6000 sq ft. Year number 7 and zero issues with it, I figure the payback was 2 years maybe even less.

 

[chaikwa]

Question everything about the "warranty"

2 weeks in my first season(2005) with a Global Hydronics GH100 the pump started squealing,called the dealer.
"you need to take the pump off and send it to the manufacturer and they will determine what they will do"

That's the kind of thing I've been reading about. I would just as soon avoid getting into situations like those. I don't know whether Hawken has changed their customer service philosophies or not since the GH days. I would hope so! I have a Hawken rep coming out Wednesday, so we'll see what he has to offer. Thanks for your reply!

The "Turner" brothers and the "Hawger" boy all three have the CB units and live in 100+ year old, 2 story brick homes,,can't make a comparison to my use. "Crooked Charlie", who lives in a modern construction, ?2k-3k? sq. ft. home uses the Hardy unit,,cries the blue river over his wood use. Again, no comparo,,he has the most maintenance issues,,his unit is probably too small for his app. The only other guy I know, an acquaintance really, has a Hardy and his home is similar to mine also heats his ?40x60? tobacco shed. Sorry, not much help.

I don't know any more, as I haven't looked into OWB since my purchase, if the other units have more than one accommodation for pumps. I really liked the idea of running two different pumps, on two different circuits offered on the Woodmaster. ie,,Home heating on one circuit, full time. Another circuit running on/off for an out building if I so desire with out disrupting the home heating. Again, I don't know. The CB units may have offered this feature back when I was shopping, however, the dealer was so far north of me, I did very little research on them.

Thank you for your replies greendohn, they're much appreciated.

Central boiler 5648 with natural draft. I heat 2 houses, a garage, and DHW.... roughly 6000 sq ft. Year number 7 and zero issues with it, I figure the payback was 2 years maybe even less.

Thanks!

 

[merr6267]

At risk of sounding like I'm spamming the board with ads (I'm not exactly new here, I just don't really post too often).
I'll throw a recommendation out there for The Log Boiler. You have probably never heard of them, because they are mostly a local company, but they are local to you. They are just up 131 in Hudsonville.

Tom, (the owner) has a layout that sounds like it would work well for you. You can put 4' logs into it and it has some pretty neat draft controls and other features. I'm not sure exactly how much he's charging but I think it's in your ballpark. I used to weld some of his larger units, which are likely bigger than most of you have seen around.

http://www.facebook.com/TheLogBoiler

The Log Boiler - The LARGEST top loading wood boiler on the market!

Tom Lubbers 616-916-0900

The facebook page has more pictures of "The Log Boss", which is the unit that I think would best fit your needs.

Give Tom (the owner) a call and tell him what you need.

Take care,
Phill Merrill

 

[brenndatomu]

That's something I'm looking at too. If whatever I buy has a problem that can't be resolved with a phone call, I want to know that someone will be able to come out. It has simply amazed me that better than 2/3rds of the dealers I've called have either refused or at least hesitated to come out, look at what I'm trying to heat and make a recommendation. I'm of the opinion that if someone is going to spend 15 grand with me, you bet your butt I'll make a trip to their property if that's what they want!

As far as the high efficiency units go, I'd love to have one, but I don't think it would be worth my effort to split the wood up into small pieces, then pay close attention to the moisture content in order to burn it. I have no illusions that burning big, round, green pieces will be in my best interest, but with the amount of varied wood the tree company brings me, the less I have to handle it, the better.

greendohn, just curious; how does your wood useage compare to those people you know that have CB's? Maybe thier heating requirements aren't close to yours so you can't really compare this way, but I'm wondering if there's really a difference in the amount of wood used to produce the same amount of heat from one manufacturer to another.

Unless you LIKE making wood, and it sounds like you don't, burning big DRY/SEASONED pieces will be in your best interest. People seem to have the idea wet/green wood in OWB doesn't matter, it does. Just because you don't have to worry about a chimney fire doesn't mean all the rest of the normal wood burning principals don't apply, they do. Burning green wood, you are still making less heat because of lower firebox temps and you are still losing a ton of BTUs up the stack in steam. It's true you can get away with green wood in a non HE boiler, but you will use A LOT more wood!

In my experience, natural draft will use less wood than forced draft.

The people I have talked to that put in water storage tanks, LOVE LOVE LOVE them. Load the boiler once a day, burns at max efficiency, less/no smoke.

My dad has a large CB that heats two old farm houses and two somewhat insulated shops (total of about 9000 sq. ft.) they have had very little trouble with it in the 10-12 years they've had it. I think CB replaced a couple doors under warranty early on before design change.

 

[Blazin]

At risk of sounding like I'm spamming the board with ads (I'm not exactly new here, I just don't really post too often).
I'll throw a recommendation out there for The Log Boiler. You have probably never heard of them, because they are mostly a local company, but they are local to you. They are just up 131 in Hudsonville.

Tom, (the owner) has a layout that sounds like it would work well for you. You can put 4' logs into it and it has some pretty neat draft controls and other features. I'm not sure exactly how much he's charging but I think it's in your ballpark. I used to weld some of his larger units, which are likely bigger than most of you have seen around.

http://www.facebook.com/TheLogBoiler

The Log Boiler - The LARGEST top loading wood boiler on the market!

Tom Lubbers 616-916-0900

The facebook page has more pictures of "The Log Boss", which is the unit that I think would best fit your needs.

Give Tom (the owner) a call and tell him what you need.

Take care,
Phill Merrill

Holy ####ing smokes! :msp_scared:

 

[chaikwa]

At risk of sounding like I'm spamming the board with ads (I'm not exactly new here, I just don't really post too often).
I'll throw a recommendation out there for The Log Boiler.

Thanks, I'm checking them out now.

Unless you LIKE making wood, and it sounds like you don't, burning big DRY/SEASONED pieces will be in your best interest.

That's kinda what I was getting at in my post but it didn't really come across that way I guess.

 

[beerman6]

Holy ####ing smokes! :msp_scared:

:jester: About us:We love burning wood,we hate chainsaws and splitters