Dangerous Tree Comes Down

[Metals406]

The first thing I would have done would have been to undercut the face cut, that way the wedge would drop out when freed or pinched out (maybe) in this case.
I cut very few higher than my waist unless it is necessary to aid in stump removal.
The other thing I would have done, is after the tree started moving during the back cut and stopped, I'd have gone to the house and had a cup of coffee and checked AS for a while, or gone OUT OF THE AREA to another tree or cleanup and let it determine if it wanted to go ahead and fall. They often do, especially if there is any breeze or bright sun on a cold day.
Youens just flame away, I cut on a farm that doesn't belong to me and have cut several that I wasn't enthused about but the farmer needed them down. Sometimes you have to do that to maintain your welcome.


Mike

Dang it Mike, I don't do my own flaming, I hire Ol Randy Mac fer that. ;-)

Happy New Year to ya!

 

[Bushmans]

Thanks everyone for all the responses. Unfortunately trees like this one will be cut down forever by plenty of inexperienced people. Some will not go as planned. This tree is in my wood pile but if I would have had to fell it then it would still be there. I have only felled maybe 20 trees in my saw time. I take the easy ones. It's easy to sit back and say leave everything to the professionals but you know it ain't gonna happen. I almost wish you needed a license to own a chainsaw and that would at least require a few hours of basic training. No one taught me howbto cut a tree down. It's all self taught. Mostly from here and some reading I have done.

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[flyboy553]

I don't disagree at all.

But, he did ask opinions on how others would get it down. If no one shared thoughts or experiences, it would make it pretty tough to learn. Hopefully the take away is recognizing the severity of the situation, and that leaving trees is perfectly valid.

Cat faced, broken, and rotten based trees (and dead snags) may seem like great fire wood opportunities because they're not healthy; unfortunately they're often the most dangerous to cut. If a sloping backcut is tucked away in one's arsenal of tricks, the aforementioned trees should really be strictly off limits...

99.9% of the trees I cut down are standing dead. The only live tree I fell is one that the landowner wants removed, at most 2 or 3 a year. And I have been doing this for over 35 years, 75 to 90 full cords each year. I've not been injured once, knock on wood.

This is the difference between logging and firewood cutting. My job is to go in and remove the dead, and down trees, including the snags and spars. I wouldn't be out there long if I was cutting the guys live trees now, would I! I have equipment I use in the woods which helps keep me out of real dangerous situations for the most part, but thinking things through before I cut is what has kept me healthy all these years I reckon.

I can see how someone who only has ever cut live trees would think the way they do inre: "danger trees", but when it is all you ever cut, you get a different opinion on what is a danger tree and what isn't. Or really, the degree of difficulty involved in putting that dangerous tree on the ground.

Kinda like the first time you go for a ride in a NASCAR car, you would be scared as all get out. But once you have driven the thing for a while, it aint so bad.

Ted

 

[Bushmans]

That's a lot of wood Ted! I was hoping to get up to 10 this year but I don't know if I'll make it. Cutting wood around here is a tricky thing. It's feast or famine. This particular site is a very narrow strip of woods between a house and a bean field. The homeowner is 80 plus years old and wants them out of his little strip of woods before they fall on his lawn making a mess. Luckily for us that was the only bad tree. Most of the others were already on the ground inside of the wood line so we simply cut them into 15-20 foot lengths and drug them out into the open field. It was nice to be able to leave all the limbs and debris in the woods and only drag out clean logs!

Everyone around here wants so much money for cutting dead or tops. I might as well buy it if I'm gonna pay some of the prices people want. If I'm gonna buy firewood I might as well buy propane. Why waste my time and money when I can buy propane for slightly more. This is why I try to take every tree I can get my hands on!

In hindsight we might have been able to put a ladder on that tree, climb up a ways and wrap a 100' cable on that thing and jerk it down with the neighbors big tractor!

 

[flyboy553]

Yes, I am lucky to have a landowner with a 160 acre woods that is nearly all red oak, with a little bit of bur oak mixed in for the fun of it. Oak wilt has gotten in there bad, and I can't keep up. Plus it is all rather low ground, with the groundwater at about 3 feet so the root system is shallow. When we get a 30 or 40 mph wind in the summer, those big canopies catch more wind than the roots can hold and over they go! Each day as I leave, I drive through his yard (only entrance to the woods) he stops me to shoot the crap. he asks how many loads I got out and I tell him, and his response is always that I shoulda got one more! lol
When I first started cutting here, one couldn't even get IN to the woods for all the blowdowns. Now there are trails all over and they can get in there to hunt! He told me the place looks like a park. So one day I had a sign painted up and hung it out there that says ****** Park. Proudly maintained by Quicksdraw McSaw and Balsa Louie! lol He got a kick out of that!

Ted

 

[Bushmans]

" Quicksdraw McSaw and Balsa Louie!"

I like that! Very catchy!

 

[slowp]

My, look at those nice, straight trees, clear woods with wide spaces and lack of underbrush & obstacles. Sure doesn't look anything like PA!

Conditions vary, as do the purposes of the people cutting wood. There's no way most home firewood gatherers are going to have the skills, experience or equipment that professional loggers do. That doesn't mean there's nothing for a firewood guy to learn from professional loggers, but neither is it necessary to gain that level of proficiency to be safe and effective.

Those straight trees were leaning or weighted towards the barn. Cody had to make them go away from where they naturally wanted to go without having them set back on his saw. That's why he was putting in the back cut first on a few, and then the face cut. That's why the video is called, Falling Backleaners. Go back and watch it again. Why was he pounding the heck out of 4 wedges if the tree was perfectly straight?

I've seen him work and like Metals said, the guy is an artist of falling. Definitely one of these fallers. Things to note? He had everything he needed along with him including a substantial axe and the most important safety item, his brain/knowledge.

 

[Chris-PA]

I've seen him work and like Metals said, the guy is an artist of falling. Definitely one of these fallers. Things to note? He had everything he needed along with him including a substantial axe and the most important safety item, his brain/knowledge.

I have no doubt he is, but what is your point in posting that video? Will he come cut my firewood? Are you suggesting that is the level of expertise a firewood gatherer should expect to achieve?

The guy is an experienced pro faller, and I get paid to do another job. I'm not an artist - I am and will always be an amateur cutting firewood to heat my home, but heating my home is in fact an important task. There have been amateurs cutting wood off these hills and heating this same house for 180 years.

I'm cutting wood out of 30 acres and I need to maintain that so it is sustainable. I don't cut live trees unless they are damaged in some way, so every tree I cut is a problem tree. I don't have to fall trees very often, as between the increased recent storms and disease I have more deadfall than I can keep up with. However, a large portion of what comes down gets snagged or hung up, on often steep terrain with lots of rock and boulders and plenty of other stuff to hit as it's a forest and not a tree plantation.

I can't walk away from all of it or I'd have to cut healthy stuff and soon destroy the woods. That is the job of a firewood gatherer in this region. That said, I've learned a lot since I started reading here, and I'm always glad to get knowledge from wherever I can. Still, there's a world of difference between firewood and F&L.

 

[zogger]

Here's some good falling except don't do what he's doing on the last tree--walk in front of it. This guy is the real deal. There's lots of wedging and he's making trees go the way they are not inclined to go--they are backleaners.

That was a nice video, just watched it. not seeing any huge problem trees with what he had there though, he made normal cuts and wedged the snot out of them. It really has little to do with rotten cracked real big deciduous trees with goofy weights and branches all over, other than that generic theory of wedges can lift a tree and move it, and helps with not getting your bar pinched. He did a fine job, but it doesn't fit this discussion very well at all.

There really does exist a need for nice falling vids, instructionals, but it would have to be done with a dedicated videographer who is a "pro", with a good camera and decent technique, and not a selfie with a jerky helmet cam, removing unnecessary chainsaw noise, then follow up added to the vid narration from the faller (hence removing/ minimizing the chainsaw sound so you can understand the speech) so it is synched with the video on what he is doing, how, why, when etc. A before, looking at the tree and discussing it, during the fell, then a follow up with looking at the stump closer and so on.

 

[slowp]

Wellllllll, there's always this, for basics other than the slopping back cut. Putting on flame suit now...Oh, the guy teaching it out here constantly said, "It's the small trees that'll kill you."

http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php

There's nothing wrong with cutting green healthy trees either. That's part of what I've got for next year in the woodshed, I cut it in 2012. Timber stands need thinning from time to time to keep them healthy and growing. We call it forestry.

 

[Bushmans]

I would be very interested in the atv gentle clearing training. That is what we need around here. Of course I didnt see anything close by.

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[Metals406]

Y'all are some iron headed sum beeches! LOL

Lets clarify some points.

Nobody is saying you can't learn how to be safe and proficient cut'n firewood. I started cutting firewood, and falling trees by myself when I was 10 years old. By the time I was 20, I thought I had it licked and that I was a badass. Then I started logging, and realized I was a cull, and my knowledge base was extremely limited.

Not every dead standing tree is a 'hazard' or 'snag'! Not every blow-down is loaded, waiting to break your legs. Lets call a spade a spade, and admit that most firewood we gather is relatively safe and sound.

The ENTIRE point people were trying to make, is to know your limits!! Don't beaver on a clearly messed up snag, and hope for the best! Trees rarely do more than two things when you don't show them the proper amount of respect. . . They either hurt you really bad, or they kill you.

Second chances are pretty rare in the woods, whether you're firewood cutting or working as a professional. The minute you think you're a "pro", and that you've arrived -- a tree will humble your butt -- and not in a good way.

A steel working buddy of mine almost died in 2012. He and a friend were out cutting firewood, and Sam (My buddy) was on the road -- while his bud went up the cut-slope to fall a very large Larch snag. When Larch die, the bark slips, and they can make a run down a slope till it hits the bottom.

This Larch was about 4' on the butt and 130' tall. They're like the sharpened point of a pencil, and usually lose all their limbs.

So being 500 yards away, Sam thought he was more than clear of any danger. When that tree hit the ground, it ran down the slope like a freight train. They can do it relatively quietly too, and Sam was unknowingly right in the cross-hairs. By the time he knew he was in the path of a runaway tree, it planted itself 8' deep into the hard road surface, broke off, and hit him in the face.

They figure it tossed him 50+ feet over the bank. Sam's pard had no idea anything had happened and took his time coming down the hill. When he got to the road he saw what the tree had done, and called out for Sam, with no answer. He panicked and ran to the truck -- finding Sam inside passed out. His face was bloody, and now there was a tree in the road to cut away before they could rush him to the hospital. They were 70 miles from town, and no way to get help, besides helping themselves.

Sam doesn't remember how he got in the truck. He has no recollection of crawling up the hill, and portions of the drive into town aren't there. He is absolutely lucky that tree didn't rip his head from his shoulders.

The damage? Fractured jaw, fractured skull, soft tissue damage, lacerations, and obvious brain trauma/swelling. The doctor said the X-ray of his skull looked like someone had cracked a hard boiled egg (there were so many micro fractures). He said he not only should NOT have lived through it, but he should be brain dead and in a coma.

So we can measure weenies, and puff chests -- but in the end -- knowing your limitations will save your butt. Having real life experience to know what a tree might do in a certain situation, is irreplaceable. It can't be made up by ego, or fearlessness, or carelessness.

Good luck fellas -- keep yer heads on a swivel!

 

[Vermonster]

Wellllllll, there's always this, for basics other than the slopping back cut. Putting on flame suit now...Oh, the guy teaching it out here constantly said, "It's the small trees that'll kill you."

http://www.gameoflogging.com/training.php

There's nothing wrong with cutting green healthy trees either. That's part of what I've got for next year in the woodshed, I cut it in 2012. Timber stands need thinning from time to time to keep them healthy and growing. We call it forestry.

Thanks for the link. There are a number of courses offered within an hour of my home/wood lot. 98% of what I cut is live wood. http://www.woodlandtraining.com/GOL.php

 

[zogger]

Y'all are some iron headed sum beeches! LOL

Lets clarify some points.

Nobody is saying you can't learn how to be safe and proficient cut'n firewood. I started cutting firewood, and falling trees by myself when I was 10 years old. By the time I was 20, I thought I had it licked and that I was a badass. Then I started logging, and realized I was a cull, and my knowledge base was extremely limited.

Not every dead standing tree is a 'hazard' or 'snag'! Not every blow-down is loaded, waiting to break your legs. Lets call a spade a spade, and admit that most firewood we gather is relatively safe and sound.

The ENTIRE point people were trying to make, is to know your limits!! Don't beaver on a clearly messed up snag, and hope for the best! Trees rarely do more than two things when you don't show them the proper amount of respect. . . They either hurt you really bad, or they kill you.

Second chances are pretty rare in the woods, whether you're firewood cutting or working as a professional. The minute you think you're a "pro", and that you've arrived -- a tree will humble your butt -- and not in a good way.

A steel working buddy of mine almost died in 2012. He and a friend were out cutting firewood, and Sam (My buddy) was on the road -- while his bud went up the cut-slope to fall a very large Larch snag. When Larch die, the bark slips, and they can make a run down a slope till it hits the bottom.

This Larch was about 4' on the butt and 130' tall. They're like the sharpened point of a pencil, and usually lose all their limbs.

So being 500 yards away, Sam thought he was more than clear of any danger. When that tree hit the ground, it ran down the slope like a freight train. They can do it relatively quietly too, and Sam was unknowingly right in the cross-hairs. By the time he knew he was in the path of a runaway tree, it planted itself 8' deep into the hard road surface, broke off, and hit him in the face.

They figure it tossed him 50+ feet over the bank. Sam's pard had no idea anything had happened and took his time coming down the hill. When he got to the road he saw what the tree had done, and called out for Sam, with no answer. He panicked and ran to the truck -- finding Sam inside passed out. His face was bloody, and now there was a tree in the road to cut away before they could rush him to the hospital. They were 70 miles from town, and no way to get help, besides helping themselves.

Sam doesn't remember how he got in the truck. He has no recollection of crawling up the hill, and portions of the drive into town aren't there. He is absolutely lucky that tree didn't rip his head from his shoulders.

The damage? Fractured jaw, fractured skull, soft tissue damage, lacerations, and obvious brain trauma/swelling. The doctor said the X-ray of his skull looked like someone had cracked a hard boiled egg (there were so many micro fractures). He said he not only should NOT have lived through it, but he should be brain dead and in a coma.

So we can measure weenies, and puff chests -- but in the end -- knowing your limitations will save your butt. Having real life experience to know what a tree might do in a certain situation, is irreplaceable. It can't be made up by ego, or fearlessness, or carelessness.

Good luck fellas -- keep yer heads on a swivel!

Very nice post and story..and again, it has nothing to do with very large common heavily branched dead or near dead deciduous trees in the more eastern areas of the US. This is the point we are trying to make back, not weenie wagging, but that ya'alls common out west large conifer logging is *not* like more eastern type firewood harvesting on a personal or small scale commercial level. Saws are involved, and we are talking about trees, after that, it diverts. Like talking about sportscars and heavy trucks, they are both motor vehicles. Out here, these sorts of trees are a lot of what we get to use for firewood, the nasty trees, sometimes huge, that aren't good for anything else. They aren't quality timber. they are nasty gnarly trees that need dealt with, but contain a lot of BTUs.

We are trying to stay focused on this type of cutting, these refs to redwoods/doug firs/whatever for timber aren't in our reality for the most part.

We get the analogies, and the parts that are common, and paying super attention to deadfalls/widowmakers/gravity and angles, etc. but stories like yours and slowps vid are not exactly a match or even close to what this discussion is about. No one here is putting you folks down, we just have a different situation to deal with.

And we also know that GOL is a subject of much guffawing around the F&L forum (and other sites on the net with members who crossover...), as is the term cull or stupid farmer or "firewood hack, ha ha ha" something, to refer to anyone who isn't a pro western logger.

 

[Nuzzy]

99.9% of the trees I cut down are standing dead. The only live tree I fell is one that the landowner wants removed, at most 2 or 3 a year. And I have been doing this for over 35 years, 75 to 90 full cords each year. I've not been injured once, knock on wood.

This is the difference between logging and firewood cutting. My job is to go in and remove the dead, and down trees, including the snags and spars. I wouldn't be out there long if I was cutting the guys live trees now, would I! I have equipment I use in the woods which helps keep me out of real dangerous situations for the most part, but thinking things through before I cut is what has kept me healthy all these years I reckon.

I can see how someone who only has ever cut live trees would think the way they do inre: "danger trees", but when it is all you ever cut, you get a different opinion on what is a danger tree and what isn't. Or really, the degree of difficulty involved in putting that dangerous tree on the ground.

Kinda like the first time you go for a ride in a NASCAR car, you would be scared as all get out. But once you have driven the thing for a while, it aint so bad.

Ted

Absolutely nothing wrong with dead trees for firewood! I'd take whatever people would let me when firewooding my years in Michigan, and obviously that's usually dead or damaged. Didn't mean to suggest all dead trees are incredibly dangerous. What is true, is that a dead tree is usually more unpredictable than a live tree, all other things being equal.

Keeping your head about you, knowing how to read situations, and a bit of luck go a long way in having a good safety record!

 

[Nuzzy]

On a side note, a rotten cherry (or red oak, can't remember now) provided my worst butt pucker moment. Talk about a tree I should have left... The sound it made when it barber chaired 15 feet up was crazy, albeit drowned out by the sound of my heart beating in my head as I jumped backwards with all the adrenaline I had.

 

[Metals406]

Very nice post and story..and again, it has nothing to do with very large common heavily branched dead or near dead deciduous trees in the more eastern areas of the US. This is the point we are trying to make back, not weenie wagging, but that ya'alls common out west large conifer logging is *not* like more eastern type firewood harvesting on a personal or small scale commercial level. Saws are involved, and we are talking about trees, after that, it diverts. Like talking about sportscars and heavy trucks, they are both motor vehicles. Out here, these sorts of trees are a lot of what we get to use for firewood, the nasty trees, sometimes huge, that aren't good for anything else. They aren't quality timber. they are nasty gnarly trees that need dealt with, but contain a lot of BTUs.

We are trying to stay focused on this type of cutting, these refs to redwoods/doug firs/whatever for timber aren't in our reality for the most part.

We get the analogies, and the parts that are common, and paying super attention to deadfalls/widowmakers/gravity and angles, etc. but stories like yours and slowps vid are not exactly a match or even close to what this discussion is about. No one here is putting you folks down, we just have a different situation to deal with.

And we also know that GOL is a subject of much guffawing around the F&L forum (and other sites on the net with members who crossover...), as is the term cull or stupid farmer or "firewood hack, ha ha ha" something, to refer to anyone who isn't a pro western logger.

*Sigh*

I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?

Matt has it right, someone asks, gets an opinion from someone qualified to answer -- and because they don't like the answer -- they ignore it or argue about it.

You seem to have a deciduous snobbery thing going on, which I certainly haven't brought up, but since you have. . .

You think that I have never cut hardwood of any kind, or that uneven loading or weighting isn't an issue in conifers?? Well, you would be about 400 different kinds of wrong. Conifers can be just as bad as any deciduous tree.

We have lots of hardwood here too, it's just in the city limits for the 'exotic' stuff. I have a poo load of Elm sitting outside my door right now. Believe it or not, I actually cut it myself, with a chainsaw. There's Maple, Oak, Locust, and quite a few others within my grasp, I just have to ask.

In the 'wild', we have Alder, Birch, Cottonwood. The Cottonwoods average 5' on the butt, some larger. So there I go ruining any size stereotype you might have.

Also, if you actually knew diddly squat about falling trees, you'd know that cutting any tree uses the same level of expertise, experience, & knowledge, and has nothing to do about what state you live in.
For you to say, "Y'all are ignorant of our way cause you don't cut 'X' kind of tree", is silliness. Why do you think Columbia Heli would bring fallers in from the west coast to Florida, Indiana, WV, etc to cut timber -- if it was too great a chasm for them to bridge? It's because they were alpha fallers, and you could put them anywhere to get the job done.

Y'all can just keep doing things how grandpappy did them till the cows come home if you want. Cause it works, and grandpappy was the best!!

We dumb western folks will just keep our stupid experience to ourselves, and let someone east of Nebraska answer everything.

 

[rms61moparman]

*Sigh*

I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?

Matt has it right, someone asks, gets an opinion from someone qualified to answer -- and because they don't like the answer -- they ignore it or argue about it.

I'm not trying to argue.
I know that dang near everyone here has a lot more felling experience than me and I have learned a boatload from the folks here in the few short years I've been here.
I'd never seen any type of notch except the standard (for here) horizontal cut, go up 3 or 4 inches and angle down then knock it out wedge until I joined this site. That's all we ever used here.
I learned about notches and their uses from a Husky saw video.
However, the original poster wanted advice on how to cut the tree in the first video and immediately the responses started coming in that those should be left to professionals.
Well that is good advice but didn't answer the question.
Paying someone to come in and cut a tree that is next to your house is one thing, but we here in Kentucky can't hire a pro to fell firewood.
So we are left with;
1) The tree has to come down.
2) I have to get it down the best possible way.
3) How can I do it and not die.

I have a great respect for you and the other Pro's on this site and that is why this is where I'd come if I had a question.
But to just blow a questioner off with "leave that to the Pro's" not only isn't helpful it but can be just the opposite.
JMHO


Mike

 

[Chris-PA]

*Sigh*

I can see everything I say will be lost on you, but I'll give it one more try. And everyone wonders why the site is dying?

Matt has it right, someone asks, gets an opinion from someone qualified to answer -- and because they don't like the answer -- they ignore it or argue about it.

You seem to have a deciduous snobbery thing going on, which I certainly haven't brought up, but since you have. . .

You think that I have never cut hardwood of any kind, or that uneven loading or weighting isn't an issue in conifers?? Well, you would be about 400 different kinds of wrong. Conifers can be just as bad as any deciduous tree.

We have lots of hardwood here too, it's just in the city limits for the 'exotic' stuff. I have a poo load of Elm sitting outside my door right now. Believe it or not, I actually cut it myself, with a chainsaw. There's Maple, Oak, Locust, and quite a few others within my grasp, I just have to ask.

In the 'wild', we have Alder, Birch, Cottonwood. The Cottonwoods average 5' on the butt, some larger. So there I go ruining any size stereotype you might have.

Also, if you actually knew diddly squat about falling trees, you'd know that cutting any tree uses the same level of expertise, experience, & knowledge, and has nothing to do about what state you live in.
For you to say, "Y'all are ignorant of our way cause you don't cut 'X' kind of tree", is silliness. Why do you think Columbia Heli would bring fallers in from the west coast to Florida, Indiana, WV, etc to cut timber -- if it was too great a chasm for them to bridge? It's because they were alpha fallers, and you could put them anywhere to get the job done.

Y'all can just keep doing things how grandpappy did them till the cows come home if you want. Cause it works, and grandpappy was the best!!

We dumb western folks will just keep our stupid experience to ourselves, and let someone east of Nebraska answer everything.

I'm not sure what offended you, but I don't see that anyone claimed western loggers were dumb or incapable of cutting hardwood. I've no doubt at all that any good logger could come and cut anything I do. The point was that the response of "you're not qualified, you should leave that alone, and here let me show you a video of some pro faller in vastly different circumstances or tell you a story about a situation unlike anything you'll encounter" isn't really useful.

The OP's video made me cringe in several different ways, I've walked away from quite a few trees I decided were too dangerous and I don't make sloping back cuts like my dad does. I also got little new out of slowp's video or your story - there are not any 4' diameter 130' larches to turn into downhill missiles around here. Lots of nasty half dead ashes wrapped up with a dozen new invasive vines I can't recognize (along with the grapes and poison ivy), packed in with briers, wineberry and autumn olive on steep slopes covered with rock.

It seems like everyone on AS sees something to be offended by in every comment, and no one can communicate anymore.

 

[Bushmans]

I guess the main thing I was looking for was this:

"That tree looks dangerous"
"Nah I'm gonna cut it anyways"
" You see the crack going horizontally through the trunk about 4 foot up the tree?"
"No problem"
"Here is some advice on how to cut that tree and maybe escape with your life, I learned it on AS. First thing you want to do is walk away"
"Screw that I'm cutting it down"
"Ok then the next thing I learned on AS is..........don't do a sloping back cut"
"That's it? That's all you learned? Well here goes.............

You get my point? Someone is going to cut down a dangerous tree once in awhile. Me? Probably not but damn would I like to be able to give advice on how it might be done in a manner that is less likely to take a life or mangle someone.

Even a slight chance at improving a situation is better than no chance!

Any input is good input. Many minds are better than one.

Cheers and happy new year to everyone!