EPA Stove Help

[sawjunky23]

I hate to dig this thing up again but I need some opinion. My wife and I are going to be moving, we are in the process of trying to buy a bigger place, The place we are trying to buy needs some issues taken care of before we move in and it is going to be a very busy fall. I plan on putting wood heat in again but I am not sure that I will be able to get it done yet by the EPA cutoff. I was wondering if anybody out there is currently running an EPA unit that meets the new standards, I am looking for some options. I have been considering a OWB as well so I can just heat everything of the one unit instead of having multiple stoves to keep up on. My fear is #1 the cost and #2 the common issues that come with running an OWB. Anybody running one of the EPA boilers yet?

Thanks!

 

[stihlslinger]

Most new stoves already comply with the new regulations as far as I know so you shouldn't hove a problem. Leave it to the spa to regulate someting people have been doing for hundreds of years

 

[Whitespider]

Most new stoves already comply with the new regulations as far as I know so you shouldn't hove a problem.

That's just propaganda...
Unless they've been tested under the new test procedures, by an EPA authorized lab... there is no possible way to know that.
We'll just haf'ta wait and see.
*

 

[flotek]

Have you considered an EPA forced air wood furnace instead

 

[sawjunky23]

That's just propaganda...
Unless they've been tested under the new test procedures, by an EPA authorized lab... there is no possible way to know that.
We'll just haf'ta wait and see.
*

I agree with you, there is a list out there somewhere floating around with the approved units on it. I assume ifn it aint on the list its just a gimmic. I am guessing some of the cheapy stoves from the bigbox stores aint on the list.

 

[sawjunky23]

Have you considered an EPA forced air wood furnace instead

Yes I have if it seems like the better option. My thought process goes something like this. Install a wood furnace in the basement and haul wood into the basement in the fall and deal with the mess that comes with that or Install an OWB and deal with being a slave to thing but have the mess outside. I guess the other factor is with the boiler I can heat my house and shop with one unit and two heat exchangers vs having two units to worry about buying, installing, and feeding. Along with that is the fact that the wood needed although substanitaly more in quantity does not seem to need to be the same quality that an indoor unit would require. Then the other side to the debate is significantly more cost for intial purchase and install the boiler carries vs/the furnace. I have heard my share of horror storries with the furnaces too and I think the reduced chance of your house burning down due to a stove issue is a lot less with a unit that rests squarely in the middle of your yard. Then again boilers come woth their own problems too. I as hoping for some testimonials from people who have used both. The issue I have, is I find when people make a commision of selling you something their information for some strange reason always seems to be kinda shall we say one sided. I know weird right.

 

[Swamp Yankee]

I agree with you, there is a list out there somewhere floating around with the approved units on it. I assume ifn it aint on the list its just a gimmic. I am guessing some of the cheapy stoves from the bigbox stores aint on the list.

Here you go

List as of May 2015

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

One thing I like about the list is the data supplied / published is verified from an independent accredited lab, such as UL, Intertek /ETL, etc. not the doctored results of a mfgs. testing, strong armed by the company's marketing dept. Trust me having fought those battles from the Engineering and QC side it occurs all to frequently in many, many products. (AKA read the fine print) While any testing parameters are almost always an approximation of real life situations, standardized procedures and independent labs make the results, such as they are far more useful to the consumer.

Now whether the EPA regulations were needed / warranted or just another make work for an agency scenario is entirely another debate.

Take Care

 

[Dogsout]

My thought process goes something like this. Install a wood furnace in the basement and haul wood into the basement in the fall and deal with the mess that comes with that or Install an OWB and deal with being a slave to thing but have the mess outside.

Taking the cost of the unit and the amount of wood it takes to run an OWB out of the equation. I think you are greatly over estimating the amount of work it takes to run an OWB. I fill mine once in the morning and again at 6:00, clean the ash out every 5th or 6th day and call it good. "Being a slave to it" is pretty harsh in describing it.

 

[sawjunky23]

Taking the cost of the unit and the amount of wood it takes to run an OWB out of the equation. I think you are greatly over estimating the amount of work it takes to run an OWB. I fill mine once in the morning and again at 6:00, clean the ash out every 5th or 6th day and call it good. "Being a slave to it" is pretty harsh in describing it.

I am only saying that because I have two in-laws who run them and they are constantly worried about it when they go on vacation and such. They are always having to find someone to keep them full when they are not at home and the worry if the power goes out. It seems they have to stay running or you have problems. They also seem to go through a lot more wood than a furnace does. Slave may have been too harsh of adjective.

 

[Whitespider]

Here you go
List as of May 2015

That's a list of stoves meeting the old 1988 standards... we're looking for a list of stoves meeting the new 2015 standard (if such a list even exists yet).

Stoves that do not meet the new 2015 standards can no longer be manufactured for sale in the United States, and existing inventory cannot be sold after December 31, 2015. The OP's concern is he won't be ready to purchase before the December cutoff, which would mean he'd haf'ta get a "New Source Performance Standards 2015" stove. He's asking for comments/opinions from anyone currently using a stove that meets 2015 standards.

The new standards not only require lower emissions, they include new test and emissions measuring procedures; just because a previous stove had low enough emissions under the old test does not in any way indicate compliance under the 2015 standard. As I last understood it, the EPA hadn't even certified any lab to perform the new test procedures yet, so there couldn't possibly be any stoves officially meeting the new standard yet (but that may have changed).
*

 

[Dogsout]

I am only saying that because I have two in-laws who run them and they are constantly worried about it when they go on vacation and such. They are always having to find someone to keep them full when they are not at home and the worry if the power goes out. It seems they have to stay running or you have problems. They also seem to go through a lot more wood than a furnace does. Slave may have been too harsh of adjective.

I can see your point about going on vacation and no power. I guess I assumed that most people would have their furnace as a back up in case of break down or emergencies. I have the best of both worlds where when I go on vacation my Nephew (Who lives a block away) looks forward to baby sitting my burner. With a power outage which everyone has to deal with I just hook my generator up to the house panel and not miss a beat. Finally I heat with hot water radiators so I never worry about an OWB malfunction because if my furnace has to kick on it will keep my house warm and also then send some heat back out to the burner to keep it from freezing.

 

[stihlslinger]

all new stoves comply with the new regulations and do not effect current stoves in use for now

 

[stihlslinger]

Epa.gov has the downloadable book on the regs tryed to download it but my tablet said it was to big

 

[Whitespider]

all new stoves comply with the new regulations...

How do you come up with that??
Non-compliant stoves and other wood-fired appliances manufactured before May 15 can still be sold until the end of the year. That means dealers, big-box stores, and internet sales sites are currently selling appliances that do not comply with the new standards. The testing of new appliances for the new certification standard wasn't even authorized until June 14... just 20 days ago. Those that certified before June 14 were certified under the 1988 standard, and are grandfathered in under the old standard until certification expires or a certain time period (don't remember the time exactly, two years comes to mind), which ever comes first. If testing, using the 1988 procedure, shows emissions levels within the new standard guidelines (even though the new test procedure was not used), that stove is grandfathered in until the 2020 Step 2 standard becomes effective. This "grandfather " clause is to help small business transition... but the stove has not "certified" under the new standard, using the new test procedures... it has simply qualified for the grandfather clause. The new test procedure requires a very different procedure of gathering of emissions data.
Ain't no possible way manufacturers have tested, certified, manufactured, and filled the retail outlets with anything certified as compliant under the new standard, using the new testing procedures, in just 20 days... no possible way.

 

[stihlslinger]

That's just what I was reading at spa.gov and other places they may have been referring new as current stock, I don't know. But the more I read about this the more confused I get lol

 

[stihlslinger]

My big question is why is the spa regulating wood stoves? Its wood smoke its cleaner than most things and its just as natural as natural gas.

 

[zogger]

My big question is why is the spa regulating wood stoves? Its wood smoke its cleaner than most things and its just as natural as natural gas.

Particulates mostly.

Of course there is the other reason, with wood some big corporation can't send you a bill every month.

 

[stihlslinger]

Very true

 

[Whitespider]

the more I read about this the more confused I get lol

Reading about it will do that to a fella', you need to sit down in a quiet spot and read the new regulations... and then read them again carefully.

Even reading about them on the EPA web site will be full of propaganda or twisted language. For example, what you posted, "all new stoves comply with the new regulations", gives the impression that stoves currently for sale are compliant with the new standard. But that not what it says, it says compliant with the regulations... and the regulations allow sales of stoves that don't meet the new standard until the end of the year. So yeah, technically, all new stoves do comply with the new regulations (until the end of 2015)... but they don't comply with the new standard.

Although, we won't be seeing a lot of stoves going away at the end of the year either. Certifying under the 1988 testing procedure, and coming in under the 4½ gram per hour new limit, qualifies that stove for the grandfather clause until 2020. If you check out the current list of EPA certified stoves (Swamp Yankee posted a link above) you'll see many do qualify, but a lot of the larger stoves don't. It's pretty hard to work around the fact that a larger box means more fuel burning, and more fuel burning means more emissions...
*

 

[Whitespider]

My big question is why is the spa regulating wood stoves?

It's about the money... follow the special interest money.
*