Commercial Tree Forums should be the ONLY Forums

My wife and I were talking tonight about advice moochers and also leaks in the pay that arborists deserve for consulting. We talked the most about forums.

I've concluded that the up-and-up arborist industry would be wise to shut the door on free advice forums where homeowners can seek free consulting.

That to the degree that forums provide a direction on:

1. How to find a qualified arborisit to do a professional on-site evaluation.
2. How to contact the right licensing agencies.
3. Where to buy materials for reading and studying - general knowledge.

I think there is a huge difference between an on-line archive of information, such as a correct diagram showing a pruning cut, versus an arborist trying to give free advice about incomplete information posted on a site - not to mention the possibility for incorrect tree ID.

I have a second site separate from site below. The second one still has a forum that we will strip from it. It's barely used because after dealing with it for about 1 month, I decided not to promote or advertiise it's existence. The forum really sucked time. I noticed, not just there, how how many people go to the internet to mooch free information.

Right now, there are only a tiny handful of tree sites people can go to. One sells stuff and is geared almost exclusively to answering to homeowners. But I think their goal is not to the industry but to selling stuff - MONEY.

Arborist Site is geared heavily to professionals.

There is barely anything else out there.

My suggestion and request, is that all sites with professional integrity, quit undermining the consulting trade of arborists, by removing free advice forums to homeowners or by not adding such kind of forums to their web sites.

That way people can get better quality and also the arborists will get paid for their investment in books, training, certifications, etc..

So I'm dropping my residential forum from my site. That means they can get some general tips, but not specific advice on individual trees in unknown environments where the homeownere can't convey the 30 factors they don't know to look for.

I think sites - even this - should terminate residential forums. I believe that any homeowner forums should have PRE-SET forum categories that funnel them to choice of seeking a person on an agency like:

a. forum - I need an arborist, how do I find one?
b. forum - my tree is falling, how do I get an arborist?
c. forum - what are titles of books that will help me?

In other words, almost every forum is premade, prenamed and likely a STICKY TOPIC.

:Eye:

Hey Mario, are you going to then change<blockquote>&lt;meta name="description" content="M. D. Vaden, landscape contractor, designer, certified arborist,
providing design, designs and designing, for landscaping, yard and tree
service. <b>Advice pages for</b> arborists, landscapers, <b>home owners</b>, bird
advice, as well as services for plans, planting for Oregon areas near
Portland, Beaverton, Tigard, Wilsonville, Hillsboro, Tualatin, Lake
Oswego, Seaside, Cannon Beach"&gt;</blockquote>in your pages?

<tt>: )</tt>

Sounds like job presevation. If you inform homeowners on how to cut, prune, fell & chip trees why would they hire anybody. If your a Cert. Arb. that is knowledge you had to work & pay for so why give it away. If you have been in the industry for a while then your full of wisdom and that is priceless info you charge for. We are in USA " CAPITALIZE ON THE MISFORTUNE OF OTHERS " If they dont know how to , hire some expert who worked his ass off to learn and PAY THEM ( preferably cash)
Some times customers try to watch us working then a month later we see them cutting their own trees so now we do not let them watch . Its for their own saftey anyways .
Are there any deserted islands left ?
:angel:

Glen...

No...

Reread my first post here. It already answered your question.

Did you fail to distinguish between general nature advice and specific on-site problems.

My website does not address the yellow leaves of my next door neighbor.

What did you do - speed read through the post?

You know, a dentist will provide a brochure on how to brush teeth including diagrams of how teeth are anchored. But they don't take phone calls so I can call in for a free "blind" over the phone diagnosis. They expect me to come in and pay. And they don't supply a diagnosis in the brochure for my teeth.

When I want diagnosis, I look for someone that can sift through evidence and details.

I realize we can't answer each homeowners question perfectly without knowing all the variables, or seeing the problem, But, I think a little advice, free, might allow an average homeowner to see there's more involved with what they're wanting than a simple operation. Might make them see they need professional help, and if not, well, you weren't going to get the job anyway. They are already planning to do it themselves. I'd rather give a little info and keep someone from getting hurt, or maybe help them see they're in over their heads. The paper is going to read "tree trimmer killed" anyway, doesn't matter that he's a 75 year old desk jockey that had no buisness being outside, much less up in a tree.
Hope it made sense -Ralph

Mario,

Yes, I guess I did speed through the original post a bit too quickly.&nbsp; Truth be told, I'd thought Bill Gates was dropping by for a visit.

I hear what you're saying but don't quite know what to think of it, or rather how to think of it an an agreeable manner.&nbsp; The sort of folks who will attempt to do it themselves will always be with us.&nbsp; And a large portion of them will always be not as adept at the undertaking as they want to believe they are or can be.&nbsp; Those of that larger group who want to do a little preemptive homework are not to be regarded as lightly as you seem to be espousing, in my opinion.

Perhaps the larger problem lies with those giving the answers, as per your argument, not themselves being properly trained to provide such information.&nbsp; One who would offer detailed instruction without enough available background information about the job seems hardly to be of a professional level, wouldn't you agree?&nbsp; Maybe the solution would better be to restrict the advisors to belonging to a relatively elite class?

In any event, free (open) exchange of information benefits the world as a whole much more so than attempting to keep it locked away in the possession of a few elite, who may by that situation be able to see greater personal benefit.&nbsp; It's a tricky thing to balance between personal and collective benefit, at best.

Glen

Oh, I think people that go to the library are great. They actually are exerting some kind of effort.

There's this one forum where homeowers have asked "how do I prune a tree" (lazy !!!)

I tell them to go to the library or buy a good pruning book. Seems they expect some arborist to sit for 3 hours and reinvent that wheel in front of their face.

I don't think pandorah's box is opened, because there are only about 2 forums in the US that people can really try to pry online diagnosis out of groups of arborists.

I help moderate a gardening forum pruning section, but so far it's been different because most of the posts have been after SOURCES and general advice rather than diagnosis information.

Really, to online diagnose is doing harm to people in about 1/3 of the cases.

It's basically arboriculture malpractice.

I had a big reminder today. One user of a forum posted for me to assist their reply. It was about a certain tree not blooming. I posted that I could not give advice, because I had not seen the tree or a photo. It was merely hearsay on the tree owners part. It may have been that they bought a tree mislabeled, then it didn't bloom, then supposedly we'd be giving them advice about fertilzing and drainage and light exposure. All the time assuming they have a tree that they don't

Right now, suppose I am a homeowner asking you about my pine tree having problems. How do you know that I have a pine? Do I really have a Cunninghamia? Japanese umbrella pine?

Even if we happen by CHANCE to tell the right insect or fungus, suppose we they don't know about the sunburn on half their trunk because they did not hire somebody/

www aka world wide web! Life is about choices, yes or no, do or don't, post or not post...etc. I believe the the more you help others, the more you help yourself! I'm thankful for this wonderful site and to everyone who made it passable and participates. Because of it, I have learned how to better care for the trees that I do work in and do so safely. People will do what they want to do if you show them how or not! How many people know how to prune or remove a limb properly? Know about "rope shock" and what could happen if done once to often? Who would know enough to use a 2nd tie in point? PPE and why you need it? etc. A lot of the equipment we use can be rented to anyone with a credit card any day of the week, ie)- chainsaw, chipper, stump grinder, pole saw etc. There are enough stupid people in this world ... so if someone has brains enough to ask questions then I think that person deserves to be answered. Some of what is posted on AS.com are the mistakes that the pros (& others) have made and were humble enough to post them for the benefit of others,(all others), so they don't make that same mistake. The future of a person in this business depends on the knowledge they obtain but without knowledge a persons future could be short lived! I'm not an arborist certified or otherwise nor plan to be one at this point of my life. I do however have the greatest of respect for those who have taken the time, spent the money and worked hard to become certified. Had I known about this field of work 20 years ago, I would have likely taken the same path as you and became certified. MD Vaden, I think I understand the point you are making, that being that others are benefiting from the fruits of your labor/eduction & experience without putting in the time, money or effort. You have a valid point but I think there would be a lot more butchered up tree out there had it not been for people such as yourself who log on the Internet and give free advise to us "moochers" at AS.com !!! Ya got to look at the bigger picture. :angel: HC

NorCalCutters#3 said:

If you inform homeowners on how to cut, prune, fell & chip trees why would they hire anybody.

If you have been in the industry for a while then your full of wisdom and that is priceless info you charge for.

Click to expand...

I think your second statement quoted here contradicts your first. If the service you provide is "full of wisdom and invaluable", how can it be conveyed over a few Internet posts? If it can't be conveyed over a few Internet posts, why do you think the homeowner will not have a reason to hire a professional? Also, if you have a problem about giving advice over the Internet, the solution is simple--don't give advice. I see the situation to be thus, as similarly stated in another post: I am perfectly competent and able to do my own mechanic work, yet I take my vehicle in for most repairs. Does my knowledge and ability I've gained prevent me from using a professional service? No. How much more so, then, will tree service, which is harder than mechanic work, not be affected by advice on the internet? In my opnion, forums, when done correctly, are just as likely to increase the busniess an arborist receives. Face it fellas, it's never going to take much skill for a homeowner to go out and buy a chainsaw and try to hack their trees up. Whether you help them or not, the incompetent will still botch things up, and the responsible will still utilize professional services when called for. I simply can't believe a serious argument is being made here for the removal of forums. Get a life is what I say.

There are info "moochers" out there in the big wide world but lots of people simply want to know. My eye Doctor had no problem explaining photo mapping of a retinal freckle and the warning signs of problems resulting from histoplasmosis with me and I didn't mind discussing disease reponse/fungal staining from verticilium wilt and disease progression in Silver Maples. I'm not going into eye care and he isn't becoming an arborist. We both like to learn things. Exchanging expertise is a sign of mutual respect. I recommend him for eye care because he is very competent. He hires me and recommends me for arboricultural work presumably because he holds me in similar esteem.

Bad idea?

I'd prefer to have the flow of information. The information that has passed through AS has helped a lot of climbers that would have spent years learning to do it the old school way. The guys I have helped makes a difference in my life and their's. I'd have never met many of them without this site. I'm guilty of helping a homeowner in Australia get his tree down without getting hurt. He came to AS and asked, his question was answered at AS. I emailed him instructions to get it down safely. He got it down, no injuries, and thanked me. I got an invite to visit, no money. If you search through all the .edu's out there you'll get most of the answers now. To put a stop to that would be to stifle education as we know it today. If you don't want to tell someone because you want them to hire you tell them that up front, "Your problem needs/requires you to hire a professional to come out and look, there will be a fee". Don't stop giving out information, but do tell them when it's time to hire someone. What's going to happen when they get most of the books online? Are you going to be out of buisness? I doubt it. It's one thing to know how it's done, it's quiet another to be able to do it. That is why we'll always have work.

Sold!!!!!!!! Sounds good to me.

Getting some laughs about tree-people who have asked so many questions of each other to learn more then suddenly turning around and wanting to be silent about it.

Reaks of WalMart gaining "social capital" by claiming everything they try to sell as "Made In America" then turning around and cheapening the prospect by going completely Islamic sweat shop when they've achieved the top slot.

Un believable. But I can understand the frustrations. Try to think this out more before letting anger dictate a response. Wars are lost that way.

I agree that the industry as a whole cannot be wrapped up in a few sentences given by email or on a website. The correct and proper way to prune/ trim/ cut trees and shrubs is best left to profesionals. I have seen homeowners go to Home Depot, get a book on trees and become an "arborist" overnight. They tend to use the wrong tools, preform dangerous acts (getting on ladders, standing on roof-tops, etc.) and generally make a hash of the tree / shrub befor giving up and calling someone who actually knows what they are doing. We are then left with the unenviable postion of trying to rescue the mangled patient. Giving out advice is ok as long as it is general in nature helps the homeowner make informed decisions regarding the choice of professional to come service their trees/ shrubs. ex. - Palm trees should be trimmed in August after the seed pods have opened. Crepe Mertles should be cut back in late winter - Jan./Feb., etc.
It's all fine and good to give them better service or to expand their knowledge but to attempt to empower them to be tree surgeons is NOT good.
I however do not think the Internet is full of people trying to "Mootch" info. I for one, use the Internet as a tool to expand my already existing knowledge (think online library). I suppose anyone on this forum who asks a question could be considered mooching at that rate.
My two cents...

Giving advice can be very time consuming. If the advice at best is going to alow only a very poor result or possibly a real mess, I dont think you do the person a favour. You only get them where they probably shouldn't be. If someone is quite knowledgeable already you may be able to provide them a key idea or explanation and be really helping them. I am basing my thoughts on my teen years in an auto wrecking and repair business and dealing with people trying to fix their own cars. You could spend all your time and really accomplish very little trying to educate the endless stream. Some place you have to draw the line.

Educating someone to the breadth of their situation empowers correct decision making. If you can do the work of a professional for $200 bucks most Home Depot-ites will skip the $400 and 50 stitches at an ER to end up with a dead tree. Some one asking questions trumps the guy at HD with a credit card and a Stihl calendar in the garage.

As a student i find that the amount of information i have gleaned off of websites and forums has allowed me to excell, it broadens the amount of information availale from individuals experiences allowing me to reach my own and informed coclusions. i find the free consultation pages a mine of useful information as it allows me to see what are the most frequently asked questions and answers to them, i dont belive for one momment that restricting the information will prevent people from trying to do the work themselves as some people have the sort of mentality of 'do it myself and save the cash', by providing them with information we can at least point them in the right direction. as a student i'v been buying lots of text books e.g bodylanguage of trees and illustraded guide to pruning to name but a few, and i estimate the amount of money that i have spent on books relating to arb' alone in the last six months to amount to nearly £200 and i have found a lot of information contained with in these books scattered over the net. if anyone can be motivated enough to find out the information and improve their knowledge then all credit to them and like stumper says just because you find something out dosn't put you in a postion to do it or want to.

I'm curious what M.D.Vaden's motivations are for being at this forum?

Mario seems to be turning against sharing info with the uninformed. So maybe he is here to "mooch" some himself or maybe merely self-promotion? Maybe I have to pay a consultation fee to find out?

Not making any accusations just sharing my perception at the moment.

This is the mostest silliest thread ever.