009L hard starting when cold

[rallen]

Onward to my last challenge with this saw: getting it to start easier. I have replaced fuel lines and filter, installed a carb kit, replaced the plug with the correct plug (had a RCJ8Y with huge gap instead of the RCJ6Y), and tuned it as best i can from the youtube clips I have seen, and once it starts, it idles and runs fine. ONCE it starts. It takes about ten pulls to get it to start, as if it is not getting gas.

I checked the vent line and it is open and working. I tried replacing the fuel filter, which seemed oversized for my fuel line, with a smaller filter I had left over from a 2-cycle engine repair just to see if that made a difference, but to be honest I am not sure of the condition of that filter. I will try buying another new fuel filter, this one the right size for the fuel line, and see if it helps, but I am perplexed, since once it starts it idles, and revs and cuts fine.

The only other clue I have is initially when I pulled the trigger it sometimes would die for a moment before revving up, but I opened the low idle screw and it seemed to help. It starts fine when warm.

Any suggestions? When I first got it running, it seemed to start OK but it was leaking gas from the Zama carb. Apparently when I put the fuel pump cover on it either pinched the edge of the carb gasket or was somehow torqued when I slipped it in under the idle adjust screw: when I took it apart and re-seated the cover it cured that problem, but now I am having a heck of a time getting it to start cold. The saw has plenty of power when applied to a 10" diameter piece of poplar.

The only other thing I can think of is that I did not replace the air filter. I blew it out with compressed air and it seems OK, but this saw must have set for a number of years, and with the gas leaking in the carb perhaps some got onto the filter and made it a little too sticky so that it is not breathing well enough?

It seems like it has plenty of compression using the rope-pull method, but I haven't actually done a compression check. I suppose it is possible that the rings are shot, but wouldn't that show up in power problems? I will try to do a compression check tomorrow just to see.

Robert

 

[pioneerguy600]

Richening up the L screw will help with hard starting. If the carb has been recently rebuilt did you reset the metering lever?

 

[DG2244]

Make sure all your diaphragms and gaskets are in the proper order on the carburetor and are in good shape. If you pinched that pump you may have put a small hole in it. When installing a carburetor kit you must blow out all passages and orifices so fuel can flow properly. When reinstalling the carburetor onto the reed block make sure the gasket stays in place. There is a small hole in the reed block, gasket and carburetor that must line up. That is your impulse and will cause hard starts along with idling issues. As has been mentioned already the “L” screw greatly effects starting and throttle response. New air and fuel filters are cheap and help eliminate problem areas.

 

[rallen]

Make sure all your diaphragms and gaskets are in the proper order on the carburetor and are in good shape. If you pinched that pump you may have put a small hole in it. When installing a carburetor kit you must blow out all passages and orifices so fuel can flow properly. When reinstalling the carburetor onto the reed block make sure the gasket stays in place. There is a small hole in the reed block, gasket and carburetor that must line up. That is your impulse and will cause hard starts along with idling issues. As has been mentioned already the “L” screw greatly effects starting and throttle response. New air and fuel filters are cheap and help eliminate problem areas.

When I dissassembled the carb, I cleaned everything out with carb cleaner and then blew out all the passageways, including removing the needles and blowing through them. I did not purchase new gaskets, but it seems to run fine once started so I suspect they are OK but it certainly would not hurt to change them. I was pretty careful inspecting the carb after the first leak to make sure everything looked good and was very careful in aligning and seating the gaskets and cover plates, and used the IPL to confirm order.

The only thing I did not do in the carb re-build is remove the valve jet. The carb kit came with a little cup plug that I assume would be used if one removed the jet.

I have a Zama C1S-S1C carb on this, and when I rebuilt it, replaced the metering lever that actuates the needle via the diaphragm. I couldn't find anything in the manual about setting a level for it: is this something to check?

I am hopeful that opening the L screw will solve the problem, but we shall see.

Thanks for the advice from both of you.

Robert

I will try opening the L screw to see if that helps. Any idea how far it is reasonable to have it opened? And i might as well purchase new fuel filter and order a new air filter.

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Is the choke closing all of the way?

 

[roncoinc]

Zama service manual

ZAMA%20SERVICE%20REPAIR%20MANUAL%20ALL%20.pdf - DivShare

 

[DG2244]

One turn out is a good starting point on the "L" screw.But I've found on most you will go just a little richer.If it's running as you say and not flooding out on the low end or starving on the high end, I'd sat your metering is set correct.My best guess is if the "L" adjustment doesn't help, then replace the pump.
You didn't saw if you ever checked the compression. I have noticed these saws are tolerant of low compression down to about 130 psi. Lower than that they start to have issues, and hard starting is one of them,

 

[pioneerguy600]

On those small carbs the metering lever set a few thou above the carb body casting works really well and allows faster cold starting. The metering diaphragm must be very supple also as the small diameter of them makes it more diffiucult to flex down or up. With the gasket on first,the diaphragm next and the cover , then put the screws in evenly torqued. It should not leak and it should run correctly. Set the screws an initial 1-1 1/4 turns out and dial in the carb for good steady idle first, keep that L screw set at least one full turn out, adjust the idle air screw to keep the engine running at idle, I like to keep the L a little fatter as it makes the engine easier to start and the H can be dialed in to to give good WOT, the L contributes its fuel to the WOT setting along with the H setting.

 

[rallen]

Update

So this morning I performed a compression test: 135 psi. I know it is not especially high, but I would think it is not too low to start.

I checked to see where the L screw was, and it was open almost 2 turns! So turned it back in to 1 turn, and tried to set it again. Ended up at 1 3/4 turns if I didn't want it to die back when I pulled the trigger. Shouldn't this be too open? Perhaps I have something caught in the passageway where the L screw screws in? At 1 3/4 turn the saw idles fine, responds fine, has lots of power...just is tough to start when cold.

Thanks above for sending me the Zama manual. I didn't check the metering lever height at all when I installed the replacement. I will pull the carb again and double check that height to see if it corresponds to the manual. I wouldn't think that would affect starting though.

One other question: I never pulled the muffler on this saw. Is it possible that the spark screen might be clogged and causing part of the problem?

I bought this saw thinking I could have it available for my wife when a tree falls across the drive and I am out of town, but if I can't figure out how to get it to start easier, it isn't gonna work. I like the feel of the saw, power seems fine, just need to figure out why it isn't starting. I am puzzled by the L screw setting...gotta be something in that passage, even though I cleaned it out really well and blew it out with air????

 

[roncoinc]

On the metering diaphram,,look for wrinkles,if there is get a new one,stiff at all,get a new one.
best way to discribe how it should be is like a condom fresh out of the wrapper,almost looks the same and as soft.

 

[rallen]

Is the choke closing all of the way?

The choke appears to be closing all the way just fine. On the 009, it is a very simple slide cover that simply covers the opening of the carb like a shutter, completely adjustable in terms of how far it is covered. The choke slide appears to slide over the air filter...but that does make me think about something: perhaps the air filter is worn enough that the choke shutter is not sealing when it slides across? Hmmmmm. Still doesn't explain the open L screw described below, though.

 

[redunshee]

The choke appears to be closing all the way just fine. On the 009, it is a very simple slide cover that simply covers the opening of the carb like a shutter, completely adjustable in terms of how far it is covered. The choke slide appears to slide over the air filter...but that does make me think about something: perhaps the air filter is worn enough that the choke shutter is not sealing when it slides across? Hmmmmm. Still doesn't explain the open L screw described below, though.

I tend to agree with earlier posts that you may need to replace the diaphragms, etc. If they are stiff, then you'll have a hard time getting it started,i.e. drawing in fuel. I laways replace all parts, needle valve etc. I haven't had the need to replace welch plugs, if your carb has them.
Bob

 

[DG2244]

The screen for the muffler is out on the exhaust end. You can see it easily when looking at the saw from the clutch side. I take them off because that muffler is restricted enough without a screen. I don't think you have to worry about starting a fire with this saw. You will notice a performance difference. A clogged screen won't cause a starting problem.IT usually effects the top end.

 

[pioneerguy600]

To start the engine cold it needs fuel, the way it gets fuel upon start up is the metering diaphragm drops down upon the metering lever lifting the needle valve off its seat allowing fuel to enter the carb, then the engine. If the diaphragm is stiff,wrinkled or distorted it does not do its job correctly and it takes longer, more pulls over, to get the engine to start. Raising the metering lever a hair, like .010 just makes it a little easier to start cold, can`t go too far or the engine will flood.

 

[rallen]

stumped!

Took carb apart again, checked metering level, if anything was a tad high so adjusted it slightly so the top is just barely above the surrounding metal. I took out the adjusting screws again, cleaned again with carb cleaner, blew everything out again, inspected the diaphragms and reassembled. The diaphragms had been replaced when I got the carb kit, and both fuel pump and carb metering diaphragm look fine. After this disassembly and reassembly, I could not perceive any difference. .

The gasket between the carb and reed block looks OK, but...perhaps I have an air leak somewhere? I just don't understand why that L screw needs to be out so far. If I replace the carb / reed-block gasket, I will probably replace the reed-block / crankcase gasket as well.

With regard to the reed block, there is quite a bit of discoloration /resin build-up from over the years, though It appears to be just in the center section and not at the edges. Could this be part of the problem? I am attaching a photo.

Finally, I have uploaded a video of the saw idling and WOT for people to hear it. Runs fine once started, but starting it is the problem. Maybe that 135 psi compression isn't enough? YouTube - VID-20110410-00000

I am almost ready to take this into a pro to do a proper vac / pressure test, but the cost of that will be more than the cost of the saw.

Robert


View attachment 179477

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

How about 36 pulls on this 009?

How about 36 pulls on this 009?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3gK7P9e2sK8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[rallen]

How about 36 pulls on this 009?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3gK7P9e2sK8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yep I saw that vid when I posted mine! Out of curiosity, how do you paste a youtube video directly into a thread?

OK, so I am better than 36...guess it could be worse...but I am used to my 029 that starts in less than 6, no matter what.

 

[Warroad50]

My dad has 009 Stihl when I cold start the 009 I just take the back cover off and use my thumb as the choke. Usually starts in a couple of pulls. Then I shut it off and put the cover back on and restart and go to work.

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Is the choke closing all of the way?

My dad has 009 Stihl when I cold start the 009 I just take the back cover off and use my thumb as the choke. Usually starts in a couple of pulls. Then I shut it off and put the cover back on and restart and go to work.

I still think the choke isn't choking!

 

[rallen]

Warroad50's post does make one wonder doesn't it? The way the choke closes on this is a simple piece of plastic that slides over the opening in the air filter. Perhaps if the air filter is worn, or the cover is somehow warped, the seal is not enough to choke it properly, even though the plastic shutter is all the way over.

I think I will try his technique with the thumb, and if it works, replace the filter and see if it helps, and if still a problem look at modifying the plastic shutter to push it down a tad further and/or replace the whole cover. It would be great if it proved to be so simple.

Still doesn't answer my question about why the L screw wants to be out so far though.

Robert

UPDATE: Scanned through old postings here about 009 chokes, and one of the postings commented that some of the 009's had a problem with the top cover warping, thereby not letting the choke close enough. Hmmmmmm....