2 Ways to give Arboriculture a Black Eye

[lxt]

Ask yourself who gives arborists and professional climbers the real blackeye, recreational climbers or fly by night wannabe hackers in pickup trucks mauling everything they spike up?

You ate the wrong side of the shroom and are shrinking in the tempest of your own authoritarian teacup my friend.

jomoco

Thats flippin funny!!

M.D why no response to post #49? especially the point presented in the latter part of #2

If you think that people from all over the world will descend upon the redwood forest, inhibit the trail hikers serene jaunt by way of cluttering up the walking paths with climbing debris & gatorades..... you need to go back to ground pruning of trees off an orchard ladder!! C`mon Mario....


LXT.............

 

[RedlineIt]

MDVaden asked:

Is there a realistic comparison on the horizon somewhere ?

Recreational diving of endangered/threatened coral reefs, delicate historic wrecks, etc.

Before you say that divers float and do not touch or interact with marine microecosystems, some divers make every effort in this regard, some don't.

The parallel between "damage" from marine research and rec diving also pretty fair, I'd say. Also the dive community's beefs with which certifications mean anything, which are meaningless, which independent regulating bodies are just a money-grab. Debate over whether every diver needs to hire a dive-guide for certain sites or whether to go what you would call "Ninja".

So how do you envision it Mario? All rec climbing of old growth redwoods off limits? Climbs limited to research only? Should climb-guide certs be issued, and climbing limited to guided climbs and only in certain trees?

If the dive scene is any parallel, you'll never get consensus, nor compliance, nor enforcement. Having said that, jomoco's got the key point: There are easily a thousand times as many divers that can make the plunge as there are climbers that will tackle the monster trees. Tempests/ Teapots.


RedlineIt


RedlineIt

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Just because we can/ because they are there doesn't mean we shouldn't practice some measure of restraint.

Welcome to the minority club Next they will want to climb the Statue of Liberty

As for rock climbing, there are many routs that are off limits to any climbing.

Many of the boulders in the Bolder CO area are because they are too soft a sandstone.

I believe in the ecosystem preserve model where there are varied levels of public access to different parts of the preserve.

Tempests/ Teapots.

I have to disagree, he is not talking about every redwood in the forest, but remnant stands currently restricted to even foot traffic. Should every one be ably to walk up and touch the trunk?

 

[ddhlakebound]

Shigo: "Touch Trees"

M.D. Vaden: Don't hurt the trees by touching them....

PFFT....This thread FAILS.

As Jomoco stated, the more people we have interested in trees, touching trees, climbing trees, learning about trees, admiring trees, (from the top or the bottom), the better off TREES will be in the long run.

And isn't that the goal of our industry....to help trees, directly through our work, and indirectly though the knowledge we pass on, so that others can care more for trees too? Or is the goal just to make money off the trees?

I feel theres a possibility that MD's ideas may be MORE destructive than current practice.

If the trees are there, free to be climbed, the guy who's climbing them is doing so for the experience of being in the trees. He's much more likely to be patient and careful during his climb. He/she feels the natural instinct to care for the tree, simply because they feel the public ownership of it.

Take away that feeling of public ownership, and now the guy climbing it is doing so not so much for the experience of climbing the tree, as for the experience of visibly saying FU to the authorities who arbitrarily decided that he/she wasn't allowed to climb. How much will that inspire patience and care?

Yes, rec climbing could possibly damage micro-ecosystems. So could wind, ice, and wildlife. Taking away the feeling of public ownership could damage the whole ecosystem.

Would you rather have people freely experiencing nature, as god intended, or seal off those areas, so that they become the domain of those with illegal intent. (cooks, farmers, timber thieves, vandals).

Seems to me the practical way to care for our treasured forests is to have people who care that they remain in them, touching them, climbing them, and overseeing that those who would do REAL DAMAGE are kept out, or to a minimum.

I do realize that there are a few select individual trees that require protection, and should not be climbed.

Go ahead, touch trees.

 

[lxt]

JPS, provide some opinions then in regard as to who gets to climb & how it should be gone about,As for the topic of giving arboriculture a black eye M.D is way off base in the Rec climb scenario!!!!

what I read in some posts such as yours is that because something can be disturbed means it will be ruined & therefore we shouldnt do it! or seems to be what some including yourself are hinting at????

If this is the point being made & you select few think that Rec. Climbers are going to do more damage than nature....think storms!! you are crazy! look at all the information Sillett/Preston & company got from their excursions.


LXT..............

 

[lxt]

D#@n Good post ddh!!!


LXT......

 

[RedlineIt]

Shigo: "Touch Trees"

M.D. Vaden: Don't hurt the trees by touching them....

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Thats flippin funny!!

M.D why no response to post #49? especially the point presented in the latter part of #2

Read all the replies? I already wrote about the difference between arborists entering a tree once and not knowing what's there, versus a continuous stream of random climbers, each new the tree. The scientists already know the tree.

The difference is so big between the 2 types of climbers, I'm surprised you did not already supply the answer.

Working with trees, it's amazing what I remember. I'll be in a tree where sunburn damage is only visible on the top of limbs, and I'll remember that it's there for years. Certainly the scientists are taking photos too, in addition to recollection.

In fact, they have the canopies mapped out.

You've never seen the website of the researcher outside the USA, who has a bunch of stuff on his site about tree mapping, have you? Even Dr. Sillett has the epiphyte locations mapped and recorded: sizes, elevations weights. The researchers have the trunk, stem and branches mapped and measured too, for many of the trees.

And you would even BEGIN to compare recreation climbers and scientist climbers ?

Shigo: "Touch Trees"

M.D. Vaden: Don't hurt the trees by touching them....

PFFT....This thread FAILS.

As Jomoco stated, the more people we have interested in trees, touching trees, climbing trees, learning about trees, admiring trees, (from the top or the bottom), the better off TREES will be in the long run.

My impression is that you are rather new to the more refined aspects of arboriculture and forest management. Less than 7 years - right?

Especially after trying to quote one verse to make a point.

Pay attention to context.

Even Shigo wrote on one page that there was a perfect time of year to prune, and then on virtually the next page, said pruning can be done any time of year. Stick around for a while, and read the big picture.

jomoco's suggestion - in context - that climbers should climb at will, world heritage site protected old growth with endangered species, sounds like another form of tree butchery the way I see it. It would fit in the same tree guide book as painting pruning cuts, topping trees and using black plastic under mulch. Did you actually read to know just which particular trees we are talking about?

And pertaining to something else your wrote, there already are a few trees set aside not to climb. Set aside and protected by people trained to figure that out. It's their job, and they set the rules. The rules are not difficult ones.. You seem to have missed the premise for the topic.

 

[treevet]

Even Shigo wrote on one page that there was a perfect time of year to prune, and then on virtually the next page, said pruning can be done any time of year.

Wrong!......Avoid pruning when leaves are forming or falling.

What book....what page?

 

[ClimbinArbor]

alot of good points in here.... im almost (almost) bashfull about throwing in my 2 cents on this thread, due to the fragile nature of the subject....

i love trees.
i mean i really love trees...
i am also a rec climber, as well as prof. climber.

MDV has it right, for the most part...... There are countless climbers out there that do not truly understand trees as some of us do. these people SHOULD NOT be allowed to climb these landmark trees.

BUT, what about the ones that DO know how to enter and manuever(sp) around a tree in the least damaging way???

If a scientist can place experiments in one than shouldnt a trained arborist be able to climb the same tree???

I believe that if a man (or woman) can climb a tree properly then they should not be denied the oppurotunity(sp) to experience the some of the greatest views of the world possible.

 

[clearance]

Big old trees are mighty tough, I climbed old growth for a year, I know. Those trees are going to still be there, climbed or not, or like the trees I climbed, windfirmed and topped in the bush, with spurs.
I have seen trees that have taken nasty beatings, like an 8' red cedar that got hit with a 200' tall Hemlock, that pretty well sidelimbed it ground to sky. Or spruces that once were well over 200' that had their tops ripped off by the wind at around 100' and 4' through. Still alive, still growing strong.

You think some spurless tourists are going to hurt these trees ya'll are talkng about?

What a silly topic.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Wrong!......Avoid pruning when leaves are forming or falling.

What book....what page?

That's right ... be A Lert - the world needs more lerts.

That's the perfect time ... when those are not occuring. Again, what I refer to as the "Perfect" time.

But Shigo did NOT say it couldn't be done at all, because in the same paragraph he still said pruning can be done "ANY" time.

Got any more wheels you want to reinvent?

 

[jomoco]

Read all the replies? I already wrote about the difference between arborists entering a tree once and not knowing what's there, versus a continuous stream of random climbers, each new the tree. The scientists already know the tree.

The difference is so big between the 2 types of climbers, I'm surprised you did not already supply the answer.

Working with trees, it's amazing what I remember. I'll be in a tree where sunburn damage is only visible on the top of limbs, and I'll remember that it's there for years. Certainly the scientists are taking photos too, in addition to recollection.

In fact, they have the canopies mapped out.

You've never seen the website of the researcher outside the USA, who has a bunch of stuff on his site about tree mapping, have you? Even Dr. Sillett has the epiphyte locations mapped and recorded: sizes, elevations weights. The researchers have the trunk, stem and branches mapped and measured too, for many of the trees.

And you would even BEGIN to compare recreation climbers and scientist climbers ?



My impression is that you are rather new to the more refined aspects of arboriculture and forest management. Less than 7 years - right?

Especially after trying to quote one verse to make a point.

Pay attention to context.

Even Shigo wrote on one page that there was a perfect time of year to prune, and then on virtually the next page, said pruning can be done any time of year. Stick around for a while, and read the big picture.

jomoco's suggestion - in context - that climbers should climb at will, world heritage site protected old growth with endangered species, sounds like another form of tree butchery the way I see it. It would fit in the same tree guide book as painting pruning cuts, topping trees and using black plastic under mulch. Did you actually read to know just which particular trees we are talking about?

And pertaining to something else your wrote, there already are a few trees set aside not to climb. Set aside and protected by people trained to figure that out. It's their job, and they set the rules. The rules are not difficult ones.. You seem to have missed the premise for the topic.

Has anyone considered the huge over-riding scientific contradiction inherant in Vadens authoritarian wish to ban us evolved apes from climbing the same friggin trees we did eons ago?

Symbiosis between man and trees is kinda difficult to achieve when they're kept apart sir.

My goal as a senior arborist is scienifically proving that trees are more than capable of providing man far more benefits and value in a living state, rather than a dead one.

Integrating cities and communities into the forests of the world rather than clear cutting them to build cities in THEIR place is a symbiotic thought worthy of a certain garden they claim existed in biblical times.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

That's right ... be A Lert - the world needs more lerts.

That's the perfect time ... when those are not occuring.

But Shigo did NOT say it couldn't be done at all, because in the same paragraph he still said pruning can be done "ANY" time.

Got any more wheels you want to reinvent?

Again, ....what book....what page...does he say pruning can be done anytime......#### breath.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Again, ....what book....what page...does he say pruning can be done anytime......#### breath.

A NEW TREE BIOLOGY.

Same page that he wrote what you were talking about, that you did not realize I was referring too.

I thought you had already opened to the page. Already shelved the book. It was in a pruning chapter 33 a ways into it.

He wrote "try" to avoid, but clearly left the door open to pruning "any" time.

 

[treevet]

Again, ....what book....what page...does he say pruning can be done anytime......#### breath.

You edited your post and I responded to the first one.

 

[treevet]

A NEW TREE BIOLOGY.

Same page that he wrote what you were talking about, that you did not realize I was referring too.

I thought you had already opened to the page. Already shelved the book. It was in a pruning chapter 33 a ways into it.

He wrote "try" to avoid, but clearly left the door open to pruning "any" time.

You are a master of disguise (A$$) and I give up. Simply wanted the page before you edited/altered everything you postured up about.

 

[jomoco]

A NEW TREE BIOLOGY.

Same page that he wrote what you were talking about, that you did not realize I was referring too.

I thought you had already opened to the page. Already shelved the book. It was in a pruning chapter 33 a ways into it.

He wrote "try" to avoid, but clearly left the door open to pruning "any" time.

Anyone that makes one pruning cut on certain species of trees during certain insect flight seasons needs to hand in his piece of friggin paper certifying his idiocy for using it as TP.

jomoco

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Has anyone considered the huge over-riding scientific contradiction inherant in Vadens authoritarian wish to ban us evolved apes from climbing the same friggin trees we did eons ago? ...

jomoco

Apes climbing redwoods? Never heard of such a thing.

And these are today's redwoods - not Jurassic redwoods.

Grasping at straws aren't you opcorn:

We are in the present - not the past. There is no Reincarnate National Redwood Park.

Anyone that makes one pruning cut on certain species of trees during certain insect flight seasons needs to hand in his piece of friggin paper certifying his idiocy for using it as TP.

jomoco

More grasping at straws.

Looking for one of those few isolated exceptions to define a general rule. Not a wise path. General rules are general rules, and exceptions are exceptions.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

You are a master of disguise (A$$) and I give up. Simply wanted the page before you edited/altered everything you postured up about.

Like I said - the book was shelved. If I already found the place once, I wasn't about to open the book and look for the chapter again to feed your manner of asking.

Figured you could find it yourself.

The chapter won't be leaving soon - the paragraph will still be there.