404 verses 3/8

[carvinmark]

What are the advantages of running 404 on my mill? I run a 395xp w/42" bar and 3/8 chain. Just got a reconditioned bar with a 404 tip.I am thinking about changing the tip to 3/8 but maby the 404 would be better????Any info would be great.

 

[casey v]

I have never run .404, always 3/8, however the .404 is a longer pitch and should have less teeth engaged in the cut. This means less resistance on the powerhead. What do you think?

Mike

 

[woodshop]

.404 is heavier chain, theoretically would take more abuse before breaking. But it makes a wider kerf. The thinner the kerf, the less power your saw needs to pull it through the wood, and the less wood you turn into sawdust. Example, my Ripsaw (chainsaw powered little bandmill) makes less than a 1/8 inch kerf, and thus a 60cc saw is plenty of power for it. The whole idea of milling that log is to get usable lumber. For me, even if I get only one extra board from a days milling with a thinner kerf chain (or even thinner bandsaw blade), that's one more I take home. I would use even thinner 3/8 LP chain if it would hold up, but I'm told it's not strong enough to take the riggers of milling, so standard 3/8 is what most folks use.

 

[carvinmark]

I have never run .404, always 3/8, however the .404 is a longer pitch and should have less teeth engaged in the cut. This means less resistance on the powerhead. What do you think?

Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike,
I've been told that it takes more power to run the larger chain?

 

[t_andersen]

I just bought a 41" bar with 404. I was told that 3/8 would be too weak for 41" bars. I don't think that Stihl makes 41" bars for 3/8. Other brands of 41-42" bars for 3/8 are hard to find? Am I missing something?

 

[oldsaw]

I just bought a 41" bar with 404. I was told that 3/8 would be too weak for 41" bars. I don't think that Stihl makes 41" bars for 3/8. Other brands of 41-42" bars for 3/8 are hard to find? Am I missing something?

That could be a European thing. I'm running a 42" 3/8 bar for milling, and have for the past year and a half or so. No problems, not even excessive stretch. Was using it on an 066 until a couple of months ago when I upgraded to a 3120 as my primary milling saw. No sign of added stress in a 34" wide walnut. I was actually amazed at how often I didn't have to adjust the chain. I was expecting to do it more often than with the 066 due to the added stress, not so. At least to this point.

Mark

 

[lumberjackchef]

A friend of mine just bought an Alaskan MK III with a 48" bar and he had the option of either 3/8 or 404. He chose the 3/8 and when it arrived I brought over my modified 066 to try it out. We only had enough daylight after set up to make two cuts on some 35"+ oak. I liked the way it worked with the 3/8 just fine. I will take some pics to post when I have a little more time.

 

[lovetheoutdoors]

My question is, why are the cutting teeth on a 404 pitch chain so much larger than the cutting teeth on a 3/8 pitch?

 

[woodshop]

My question is, why are the cutting teeth on a 404 pitch chain so much larger than the cutting teeth on a 3/8 pitch?

That's like asking why a 395XP chainsaw is larger than 365. .404 is designed to be larger than 3/8, which is larger than 3/8LP, which is larger than 1/4. Coffee at the 7-11 comes in different sizes, so does chain.

 

[lovetheoutdoors]

i understand that chain comes in diffrent sizes. that didnt answer my question.

 

[woodshop]

i understand that chain comes in diffrent sizes. that didnt answer my question.

...didn't mean to insult you there lovetheoutdoors, I guess I don't understand your question. Can you ask again but maybe elaborate? Maybe somebody a little sharper than I can answer it for you.

 

[lovetheoutdoors]

...didn't mean to insult you there lovetheoutdoors, I guess I don't understand your question. Can you ask again but maybe elaborate? Maybe somebody a little sharper than I can answer it for you.

im just not familiar with the 404 pitch.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

I went to my stash of chains. I run 3/8" .063 chain on a 20" bar on my 034 and .404 .063 on a 28", 41" and 72" on my 084. 3/8" and .404 are shown in the picture and you can clearly see the difference (.404 is bigger).

Now what I want to add... It seems to me that pitch has little to do with width of kerf. I measured as best I could with calipers the width of both the 3/8" and .404 chain. The difference between the two is negligible. To me, this makes since as they are both .063 GAUGE. In a cut, they may perform differently but I think that would be due to the number of teeth in the cut (assuming they are both full comp), not the kerf. I don't have any .050 or .058 chain on hand to try out but do have some 3/8" .063 ripping chain (220 drive links) for the 72"er on it's way to try against the .404 .063 (190 drive links). I'll let you know how it goes. I really want to find the BEST combination for my needs but chain costing $40-$50 per loop and the fact that all my bars are .063 gauge will make it take a while.

 

[carvinmark]

I went to my stash of chains. I run 3/8" .063 chain on a 20" bar on my 034 and .404 .063 on a 28", 41" and 72" on my 084. 3/8" and .404 are shown in the picture and you can clearly see the difference (.404 is bigger).

Now what I want to add... It seems to me that pitch has little to do with width of kerf. I measured as best I could with calipers the width of both the 3/8" and .404 chain. The difference between the two is negligible. To me, this makes since as they are both .063 GAUGE. In a cut, they may perform differently but I think that would be due to the number of teeth in the cut (assuming they are both full comp), not the kerf. I don't have any .050 or .058 chain on hand to try out but do have some 3/8" .063 ripping chain (220 drive links) for the 72"er on it's way to try against the .404 .063 (190 drive links). I'll let you know how it goes. I really want to find the BEST combination for my needs but chain costing $40-$50 per loop and the fact that all my bars are .063 gauge will make it take a while.

Wow! I don't know anything about the 404,except that it is heavier and is supposed to require more power. I was told by a few shops that the kerf is a lot more than the 3/8,even the same guage. I know what you mean about $ in chains and I'm trying to get it right(for me) this time around.Thank you for your input and I look forward to hearing what you experience.
Mark

 

[woodshop]

Thanks aggie for helping to try and clear this up. I assumed from what I have heard and read before, that the .404 does cut a wider kerf since it's a bigger chain. My Stihl dealer did tell me that .404 does take more power to pull through wood, but I really didn't know if that was actually true or not.

 

[oldsaw]

Well, a 3/8 chain is .375" and 404 is .404, .029" difference, about 1/32 of an inch. Not going to take a lot more power. However, beefier build. I don't use it because it isn't readily available in the prairie. 3/8 063 is hard enough to come by.

Mark

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Thanks aggie for helping to try and clear this up. I assumed from what I have heard and read before, that the .404 does cut a wider kerf since it's a bigger chain. My Stihl dealer did tell me that .404 does take more power to pull through wood, but I really didn't know if that was actually true or not.

I'm trying to get through all the myths and BS myself. The more I look into this, the more I'm convinced that what many people think is fact, including myself, is a conglomeration of half-truths, misunderstandings and over simplifications. There are too many variables to simply state that 3/8" or any other chain cuts faster or slower than the next. I'll list what variables I can think of here and please fill in the blanks.

Output of saw- HP & torque @ XX RPM adjusted for atmospheric conditions
Length of bar
Pitch of chain
Gauge of chain
Mass of chain
Tooth pattern (full comp, half skip, full skip, ect.)
Attitude of grind
Quality of sharpening
Chain tension
Size of drive sprocket
Chain lubrication
Specie of wood being cut
......



Back to the original question, "What are the advantages of running 404 on my mill?" If you switch from a 3/8 to a 404 chain of the same gauge and tooth pattern, you will have fewer teeth in the cut. This is a fact. Will you get increased performance as a result? It depends on the sum of all of the variables above and then some. I've looked high and low and have yet to find any scientific data to help solve this problem. Dealers in my area have been little help.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters here. I just wanted to rant a bit. I'll something more helpful in a bit.

 

[t_andersen]

Wouldn't a 404 be stronger than a 3/8? And, with a 41" bar on a big saw, the chain forces must be large? So, wouldn't a 3/8 wear faster and be more at risk for breakage?

 

[woodshop]

Output of saw- HP & torque @ XX RPM adjusted for atmospheric conditions
Length of bar
Pitch of chain
Gauge of chain
Mass of chain
Tooth pattern (full comp, half skip, full skip, ect.)
Attitude of grind
Quality of sharpening
Chain tension
Size of drive sprocket
Chain lubrication
Specie of wood being cut
......
.

Pretty comprehensive list there... only thing I would maybe add would be temperature. I remember when I was logging for a paper company that in winter when the pine trees were frozen hard as a rock we used to say the saws seemed to cut through them cleaner, easier than in the heat of summer. That may have been only in our heads though. Maybe had to do with how the sap was running (or not) that time of year? Your point is well taken though, there are LOTS of variables cutting wood with a chainsaw. 404 pitch chain being only one of many that effect the big picture.

I just bought 2 more milling chains, 3/8 .063 119 links for my 36 inch GB csm, $24 each from Baileys. The same chain, but .404 .063 would be only $2 more each. Not a big difference. Aggie is running a 72 inch bar though... so double that, and it does start to add up. Thats not premium GB milling chain though, just the basic stuff Baileys sells ground to 10 degrees, but it works for me.

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Well, a 3/8 chain is .375" and 404 is .404, .029" difference, about 1/32 of an inch. Not going to take a lot more power. However, beefier build. I don't use it because it isn't readily available in the prairie. 3/8 063 is hard enough to come by.

Mark

This is true, but the context is misplaced. The difference between .404 and .375 chain is the average distance between rivets on the drive links (.029" per link). From what I've learned, you are supposed to measure across 4 rivets and divide by three. I set the callipers to match the theoretical measurement of each pitch and compaired them against the chains. (see pics)

.404 x 3 = 1.212"

.375 x 3 = 1.125"

I have the same problem with availability. I wish I knew what I know now before I invested so much money in bars and chains.