? about contract climbers

[begleytree]

OK, this is new to me, never heard of contract climbers until I lucked upon this site.

What gives? How does it work? Who does it work for?

What I don't get is how anyone could make $$ sub-ing themselves out to a company. As a tree co owner, a contract climber/sub would only interest me if I could get a climber of equal or better skill for less than what I would pay them as an employee.
As a sub, do you furnish tools? trucks/chipper, saws and fuel? Or you and climbing gear and saw only. How does the insurance work? Are you self-covered, or under the tree companies insurance. provide him a crew or yourself only? Who handles the taxes? Who says when the sub starts a job, its completion time, hours in between?

In my mind the only way it could work is if a sub worked on self tax basis, then didn't report any of the income at tax time. But what tree company will pay out $30K-$50K a year and eat it (not send the sub a 1099)?

What am I missing here?

-Ralph, the guy who doesn't understand all he knows about this sub thing

 

[MasterBlaster]

I could tell you...

But then I'ld have to kill you.

:angel:

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Hey Butch, should we let him in on our little secret? I will contemplate it over dinner. I gots corned beef and cabbage a waitin.

Kenn

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by OutOnaLimb
I gots corned beef and cabbage a waitin.

Kenn

Don't lock me in a room with you!!!

 

[lawmart]

hey, rockey got down to the tee i did the same here, and there are a lot of guys that do the same the key is to have my own insurance,
here in ontario you will fall under the primary companies wcb(workes comp. board) i billed 60% for equimpment and 40% labour that way they paid less on comp. plus it help me on taxes at year end.
I have all my own saws and gear,(self contained)
Now i have my own company i do it for my bucket truck and other large equ. when other companies need it for a hard job around primary hydro or something.
its the way to go all money in your pocket and a whole lot of expencies to write of at the end of year.

lawmart

playsafe

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Don't lock me in a room with you!!!

Yeah, I feel sorry for my groundie tomorrow morning while we are driving to the job.



But as far as the sub contract climber issue goes, I am pretty much in the same boat as Rocky. I have all my own gear, insurance, and qualifications. I dont work for an hourly rate. Instead I charge 20-25% of what the job costs. I have my own company that I am starting up, but the winters in Colorado are not conducive for a lot of tree work. This allows me to let the contractor go out spend his dime on advertising, fuel for his truck while he is out running around bidding jobs, and all the other headaches that are associated with owning a tree company. I simply get a work order, show up and get the job done. Meanwhile I can use the money I am making from him to invest in my own company and still have the time to take care of my business. Right now its a sweet deal for both of us, but the problem for him is that he is gonna be dead on the water when I start running my own show full time here in about a month or so.

There are a few other guys in town that have my name and will use me if they have a hairy removal to do, or we get hit with another early spring blizzard and they are swamped with work. I took my truck and chipper to Lousiana two years ago after Hurricane Lili and did a fair deal of sub work down there after the company owners got swamped, or their climbers were just to plain exhausted to stay up in a tree after climbing for pretty much 72 hrs straight with very little rest.

:Monkey:

 

[Ax-man]

Is there some kind of minumim you contract guys have to charge just to show up???

Also, how far out will you travel from your local area to do trees. If you have to stay in a motel, who foots that bill???

The more I read and hear about being an independent, the more appeal it has, I would probaly starve to death if I confined myself to the local area here.

Larry

 

[MasterBlaster]

The market in your area has to exist.

 

[Ax-man]

It does to a certain degree MB,

But most tree guys have buckets or have some kind of in house climbers, even though they are spur climbers, talent and proper safe methods are lacking.

Morris, Ill is not exactly a big city either, most work is accessable for a truck, but that is changing though.

Today I got a job because I can climb, this guy knew he needed a climber and asked around till he found me. With our bucket still down I've still been able to keep cash coming in, and I don't have the hassle of ruts and getting it into yards. I have given some serious thought to going back to being a climber specialist and lower my overhead and see if I can make better net dollars.

Larry

 

[begleytree]

Originally posted by Ax-man
It does to a certain degree MB,

But most tree guys have buckets or have some kind of in house climbers, even though they are spur climbers, talent and proper safe methods are lacking.


Larry

I'd like to know what you are using to make this broad statement.

If I have a removal that needs roped out and a 'climber' tries to head up it by flipping lines/throwball instead of spurs, he is on a one way trip back to his car. Trims are different of course, unless it is a large CR, then I expect them to climb up to where it will be brought down to, and spur from there. Its all about time. Spurs are a great time saving tool, in the right instance.

What you are saying is that if I want trees pruned correctly, I must sub out the work as my in house guys can't climb. As far as I can ever remember, they have only backed down from 2 in all this time, and those were handled by yours truely. As I think back, perhaps I subbed once. My competitor asked me to climb one out for him a few years ago. Maybe I priced him too high, now he drives a truck to everything and hauls in dirt and seed to fix ruts. Oh well, I have more than I can handle anyway.


As far as prices, how can I be sure that the job isn't being milked out to make the sub's bottom line more appealing? I like the % or set price idea. My guys get paid the hours that I bid the job for. Most days they leave out at 8-8:30ish and are back around 2-2:30ish with 8 paid hours. So far they've only missed once, and I took that as my fault and paid actual time. thats their incentive to get done on time, the % or price would be the sub's.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing anyone at all, just merely stating my opinions, trying to get a feel for how some of you work. It obviously works, I'm trying to see how

 

[Ax-man]

Rocky,

Your singing my song, freedom, independence and traveling, plus the bonus of traveling that is tax deductible.

Let me ask one more question, when you first started out how did you get the word out that you were an independent. I'm assuming you had to solict or advertise in some way, or was there a need for an independent climber that wasn't being filled in your area???

Larry

 

[Ax-man]

Whoa there beglaytree, let's not get all bent out of shape over my post.

I was replying to MB because he said there has got to be some kind of demand for an independent climber"" IN MY AREA "".

I wasn't pointing fingers at any one here on the site, I'll try to be more specfic with my post.

No. 1 -- MY COMPETITORS HERE all have bucket trucks and don't need an independent climber.

No. 2 -- MY COMPETITORS HERE if they have to climb they spur trims as well as removals because that is the only way they know how to do it. They don't use lifelines just spurs and some kind of belt and buckstrap. In other words my competetors here are not professionals, are we clear on this one now??

No. 3 -- I never said you had to sub anything out to any one. If your guys can do it and do it properly then your doing a good job as an owner and shouldn't have to worry about subs.

I hope I've cleared this up before it gets out of hand.

Larry

 

[Striker]

We have lost out on jobs because we don't have a climber,(I can do some, just learn how) and haven't been able to locate a contract climber in the central Ohio area. There are some jobs you just cant get a bucket truck to. Or some trees are to tal to take down, or trim from a bucket. I climbed two trees monday because the were too far off the road to take the truck through soft ground. A good climber could have done them in a fraction of the time it took me. But I had fun doing the job. Yes I used proper equipment and tied in twice when cutting.

We don't have enough business to keep a climber busy full time, that is were a contract climber would be handy.

Jeff

 

[begleytree]

Who is bent outa shape? Who says I must be pi$$ed just because I happen to disagree with you?
I was merely inquiring as to the broad brush you used to paint that remark. So you meant in your area, Ok with me.

Lighten up dude, just because we may disagree doesn't mean were out to kick each others arses


As far as the post goes, I suppose I did really understand the context of the sub, I just had no idea that there were 'tree comapnies' out there that bid work knowing they were unable to accomplish it. I can understand getting swamped, but cannot fathom being technically unable to complete the agreed upon task without hiring outside day help. Go figure. I guess it takes all kinds to run tree companies. I doubt I could actually sub myself or crews out to someone so inept. But I'm hard to get along with too, so......
-Ralph

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I have 3 regular clients in the metro milwaukee area and have picked up what looks like 2 more last month.

How we work out the compensation depends on who they are and what they do for me in the long run. I travel for $40-50/ hr with a daily minimum. My expences com out of that. Special priojects can change that. The storm in VA paid for our hotles and food for the first 3 months on top of a higher hourly rate.

Mostly in town I have an hourly rate with a performance bonus.

One thing you have to look at as far as that rate is your total payroll cost, not just your workers wages.

I pay my taxes, provide insurance cert and w-9 so my fees can be writen off.

I have all my own climbing and rigging tools except polesaws.

I come with all nessesary saws and amintain them, though I may need gas and oil sometimes.

On top of that, i'm an above average climber. My hour is worth more then the average tree guys hour, and I have a welth of knowledge to provide.

What is it worth to you to have a skilled technician that you can schedule in to help on a project, all you have to do is pay a bill for it, that you can write off year end.

I have 5-6 different cvompanies supporting me throughout the year, so no one of them needs to cover all my income.

12k here 5 k there, maybe a few 4-600....

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Im a regular contract climber to a couple of companies, 98% of the time all I take to the job is my 020 and climbing kit. on occation I bring my 44 or any spare gear that I feel will help with the job. Im lucky to be in "demand". I can work as many days as I like for the company, but sometimes they dont have work for me (twice in the last 6 months).
I use my contract work to make up for shortfalls in what I am doing with my own company, although I also like using big company gear and not having to do quoting or stressing over timing. And the crews I work with are generally fantastic.

Theres no security in it but its enjoyable and I love the freedom.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by lawmart
here in ontario you will fall under the primary companies wcb(workes comp. board) i billed 60% for equimpment and 40% labour that way they paid less on comp. plus it help me on taxes at year end.
lawmart

playsafe

I ain't no international lawyer, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

There are a scad of ways to reduce the amount you pay to WC, but all of them come down to the amount you will be paid if there is a claim. If you get hurt, they won't pay you for your 60% equipment, you'll only get that 40%.

Rocky may be on legal ground not having WC in FL, but he still needs to have a plan to cover himself if he gets hurt. Huge hospital bills, house payments, food, etceteras are all things that still need paying, even if you can't work.

If an uninsured sub gets hurt, first they go after the sub, if he has no insurance, then the contractor and his insurance, then the homeowner and his insurance, and finally if those fail, the government welfare programs.

I do some work you might call sub-contracting, and I have the WC thing figured out. I just have them put me on payroll. That way I'm on their WC.

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Originally posted by begleytree

As far as the post goes, I suppose I did really understand the context of the sub, I just had no idea that there were 'tree comapnies' out there that bid work knowing they were unable to accomplish it. I can understand getting swamped, but cannot fathom being technically unable to complete the agreed upon task without hiring outside day help. Go figure. I guess it takes all kinds to run tree companies. I doubt I could actually sub myself or crews out to someone so inept. But I'm hard to get along with too, so......
-Ralph [/B]

Unfortunatly there are quite a few guys out there that the only thing they know about trimming and removing trees is that there is good money in it. So they run out and print up cards, flyers and invoices, tell the customer that there is not a problem and that they will have some one who can get that massive cotton wood tree that is right next to their garage and power and phone lines down with out a hitch. That is when I usually get the call. I know of one guy who had never heard of using a throwball to set a line, didnt understand the concept of a split tail, whoopie sling, port a wrap, or how hindge wood is used to direct the direction of fall, and he had owned a tree company for 3 (yes three) years. In the past he had always bid the job and had some crack head do the work for him and every thing was hunky dory for him. If nothing else hopefully this guy will retain some of the techniques I have taught him and wont kill himself some day trying to climb a tree himself when Im not available.

:Monkey:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

You just have to train him to schedule work on your availability.

I hate it when people call me and want me to work on day X without even checking to see if it's open.

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Or when he wants me to trim hedges after Im done climbing because the hedge job in "in the neighborhood" LOL