An Observation About Using AvGas

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litefoot

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I thought, at first, that it was just isolated to a particular saw, but it seems that since I've been using 100LL, my saws don't idle as smoothly as when using 93 Octane from the pump. In fact, it seems like I have to warm the saw longer at higher RPM's before it will even idle at all. I do readjust the carb and the idle speed when I switch to the AvGas.

It's not a worry to me, and I do like the lack of "additives" and cleaner nature of 100LL, but I was just wondering if the higher octane in the AvGas makes for a rougher idle and/or longer warm-up interval to get to a stable idle.

Of course, maybe I'm just imagining all this...but I don't think so.
 
I've experienced this with my saws as well. It was less noticeable on the slow old saws. ALL of my newer saws exhibited this problem significantly. It was not tuning either. You'll also find that it makes measurably less power. For these reasons, I will not run 100LL in my work saws. It only goes in the oldies that may set for a long time.

Expect to find a lot of people to disagree with you though.
 
I noticed that the Shell station lists their premium (91) as containing no ethanol, for what it is worth.

I would not want to breathe the lead fumes from AVgas. I remember leaded fuel, and the pre-PCV valve engines in Chicago were sum real stinkers.

It's just a chainsaw, and I like using them, but if it takes me 10 seconds to git through a log rather than 7.34 seconds, so be it.

Stihl Ultra at 45:1 in Amoco Gold or Super Shell for me.
 
I noticed that the Shell station lists their premium (91) as containing no ethanol, for what it is worth.

I would not want to breathe the lead fumes from AVgas. I remember leaded fuel, and the pre-PCV valve engines in Chicago were sum real stinkers.

It's just a chainsaw, and I like using them, but if it takes me 10 seconds to git through a log rather than 7.34 seconds, so be it.

Stihl Ultra at 45:1 in Amoco Gold or Super Shell for me.

Good post.

I would not dream of using any leaded fuel with handheld equipment where you may inhale some exhaust gas. It doesn't take much lead to have negative effects on your neurological and reproductive systems.
 
I noticed that the Shell station lists their premium (91) as containing no ethanol, for what it is worth.

I would not want to breathe the lead fumes from AVgas. I remember leaded fuel, and the pre-PCV valve engines in Chicago were sum real stinkers.

It's just a chainsaw, and I like using them, but if it takes me 10 seconds to git through a log rather than 7.34 seconds, so be it.

Stihl Ultra at 45:1 in Amoco Gold or Super Shell for me.

Teach,
I understand what you're getting at and I appreciate your input, but the purpose for the AvGas is not the performance increase. Higher octane is really only useful at higher compressions. I'm looking for solutions to the long-term storage question as was alluded to by Brad. Maybe the AvGas, although is does store much longer, is not the answer...especially if my saws don't run as well...and, of course, the lead thing too.
 
There have been some really great posts on this subject. It appears that, unless you actually NEED 100+ octane, there is absolutely no advantage (outside shelf life) whatsoever. The disadvanteges were numerous....everything from lack of power, poor idle to carbs freezing up in the winter. I really wanted to run it but after speaking with people in the know, I decided against it. What I would like to know is where I can get non ethanol fuel in the Cinci area. I emailed Shell a while back and this is how that went

I am enquiring to know whether there are any Shell stations in the Cincinnati Ohio area that sell non-ethanol blended fuels.


Thank you for taking the time to contact the Shell Customer Care Center.

This is in response to your inquiry. To keep the public informed, Shell has developed an ethanol products information placard. This placard will be posted at all branded sites in both the direct and wholesale networks where ethanol-blended products are sold. Decals informing motorist about the availability of this product information are required to be installed on each dispenser.

We thank you for your patronage. If you need further assistance please contact our Shell Solutions Center at 1-888-GO-Shell (1-888-467-4355).

Sincerely,
Shell Customer Care

Not sure how this answered my question.....
 
There have been some really great posts on this subject. It appears that, unless you actually NEED 100+ octane, there is absolutely no advantage (outside shelf life) whatsoever. The disadvanteges were numerous....everything from lack of power, poor idle to carbs freezing up in the winter. I really wanted to run it but after speaking with people in the know, I decided against it. What I would like to know is where I can get non ethanol fuel in the Cinci area. I emailed Shell a while back and this is how that went

I am enquiring to know whether there are any Shell stations in the Cincinnati Ohio area that sell non-ethanol blended fuels.


Thank you for taking the time to contact the Shell Customer Care Center.

This is in response to your inquiry. To keep the public informed, Shell has developed an ethanol products information placard. This placard will be posted at all branded sites in both the direct and wholesale networks where ethanol-blended products are sold. Decals informing motorist about the availability of this product information are required to be installed on each dispenser.

We thank you for your patronage. If you need further assistance please contact our Shell Solutions Center at 1-888-GO-Shell (1-888-467-4355).

Sincerely,
Shell Customer Care

Not sure how this answered my question.....

IMO, I sure don't think it would case any carb's freezing up......planes would be falling out of the sky if this where true.


TT
 
IMO, I sure don't think it would case any carb's freezing up......planes would be falling out of the sky if this where true.

Small planes have carb heaters. You turn them on in certain atmospheric conditions and for a couple minutes before landing so you don't find out your carb iced up when you apply full throttle to abort the landing.
 
We used 50/50 av gas pump gas mix in dirtbikes-made a difference when you started messing around with head gasket thickness-made for a smoother acceleration.
 
My experience

I ran all of last year on 100LL mixed 40:1 with Bailey's oil.
Everything idled smoothly, reved well, and cut fine.
A typical start was pull til it poped, click to high idle, fire it up! Blip the throttle and it would sit there and idle away quite nicely.

Now, with standard gas there might be a lighter base, more aromatics, and easier to get ignition. With avgas it will "pop" just a little more, that might indicate that it miss fires once in awhile.

Low lead (TEL) means less than 2 grams per gallon. Unless I poked the buttons wrong, With 2735.2 grams of gasoline in a gallon I came up with:
0.00073121 (another way of saying "not a whole lot of TEL" in there)

After cutting around 30 cords of wood I pulled my plugs (see sig for the saws) to see what was going on. I had a slight yellow powder on the plug. I am going to assume that this might be Lead oxide. Easily brushed off. Probably a result of the engine running not quite hot enough to effectively burn the TEL.

Now we transfer you back to your regulary scheduled programing...:censored:
 
I noticed that the Shell station lists their premium (91) as containing no ethanol, for what it is worth.

I would not want to breathe the lead fumes from AVgas. I remember leaded fuel, and the pre-PCV valve engines in Chicago were sum real stinkers.

It's just a chainsaw, and I like using them, but if it takes me 10 seconds to git through a log rather than 7.34 seconds, so be it.

Stihl Ultra at 45:1 in Amoco Gold or Super Shell for me.

I remember the "new" cars exhaust "stinking". I could tell when I was around an unleaded vehicle. There are people around today that don't even think of why it's called unleaded. It's what you're used to.

On another note, as a young kid, I can remember painted things tasting sweet. Maybe that explains a few things........ like some of my health problems.

Dan
 
Patrick62, I run 110 racing gas in my saws and the spark plugs show a yellow color too. I posted a question on AS about this and got zero replies.
Unusual for this group. So I PMed TimberWolf and he seemed to think the yellow color was from sulfur in the gas.
I thought yellow might be half way between brown and white but tuning adjustments did not change it. I could not get the tan color.
I have had no idle problems.
 
I've been doing research on gas for chainsaws and have found that, while AV gas doesn't hurt a chainsaw, it's not really an optimum fuel. AV gas is simply not formulated to run in high RPM motors and will actually produce less power at full throttle. I've talked to several gas chemists and they all say the same thing.

Fuel longevity is a function of the stabilizers they add to the mix during blending.

Octane is only for detonation prevention. It doesn't do anything for power, period.

I just tested a case of that 50 Fuel premix. Very nice. Had to fiddle with the carb at first but once it was set the fuel was consistent and the saw performed the same.

I'm going down today to pick up 5 gallons of VP Racing Fuels C12. I'll be mixing it at 50:1 with the Stihl Ultra synthetic. I'm really looking forward to testing that combination. Hopefully, burning Stihl oil in a Husky saw won't cause any radiation leakage.
 
Last edited:
I copied this article from Dirtridernet and posted it on another Avgas thread, posting it again because its very informative.

The article was written by Rich Rohrich.
Its about motorbikes but I think most of the info should carry through...

AVGas: The Truth
Posted by Rich Rohrich
Posted 04-21-2005


An excerpt from Fuel for Thought - Part 2
by Rich Rohrich



The Avgas question comes up all the time and there are a huge number of silly myths associated with it.



To the question will Avgas hurt my engine?

The simple answer is 100LL Avgas usually isn’t the best choice but it won't hurt anything. 100LL (Blue) Avgas seems to be the most readily available version so that's what we'll concentrate on.


For general high speed purposes Avgas has a couple of problems:

1) The 90% distillation point for 100LL Blue Avgas is set at 275 degrees F and the end point is set at 338F, which in an engine that turns over 7000 rpm will likely make less power than a fuel that has it's 90% point lower. Pump gas has similar problems, but most good race gas will have 90% Point MUCH lower. As an example VP C12 has a 90% distillation point around 228F and an end point set at 233.3F.



2) Depending on the refiner 100LL can have fairly high aromatic hydrocarbon content, in the 30% by weight range. This level of aromatics will tend to make the throttle response mushy and flat in applications that see big throttle opening transitions on a regular basis. It's similar to what happens when you dump a lot of Toluene based octane booster in your fuel. Throttle response becomes a distant memory.



3) The vapor pressure and distillation curve of Avgas just isn’t right for many applications. The distillation curve or Volatility curve of a fuel determines to a large degree the warm-up, transitional (on & off) throttle response, and acceleration characteristics of an engine.

Here's the simplified version:

A fuels distillation curve designates the maximum temperatures at which various points between 10% and 90% of the fuel will be evaporated as well as the maximum end point temperature. So for any Engine/Air Temperature combination there is a minimum volatility that is required for proper running. As you probably know gasoline is made up of different hydrocarbons, with different distillation points. By combining these Hydrocarbons together you get a Distillation/Volatility curve. Some hydrocarbons (light ends) boil off at low temps some at much higher temps. Depending on the intended application, a petrochemist will blend hydrocarbons to get a curve that matches the rpm range, temp, altitude, and acceleration characteristics for the application. The problem with avgas as a race fuel is the fact it is blended for an application where acceleration and throttle response is not a high priority. If you think about the average light airplane application, you're talking about a fairly low compression engine that runs in a fairly narrow rpm band, and is rarely called on to provide the type of transitional throttle response that a high rpm, acceleration critical application like motocross does. What's more important to the Avgas designer is controlling mixture strength by eliminating the possibility of vapor lock and making sure that light end hydrocarbon fractions don't boil off too early, and the lowered rpm ranges allow them to push the distillation point up on the upper end as well. As you can see, by using straight Avgas or by mixing various types of fuel together you are modifying a number of important fuel design parameters. You may hit on a combination that works well, but more likely you'll have an engine that doesn't detonate, but doesn't accelerate very well either. So Avgas is SAFE, but not a very good choice. The high paraffinic hydrocarbon content of 100LL makes a very good base stock if you want to play back yard petrochemist, and I believe this is how some of the smaller race fuel blenders start out. I can tell you from experience that it's a bear to document and test various changes unless you have a lot of time and patience, so trying to come up with your own Super Fuel is probably more trouble than it is worth.



So it sounds like Avgas is really bad for our purposes, and for the most part it is, but there is a possible exception. The closer you get to the thermal limits of a particular engine design the more useful Avgas becomes. The end point distillation temperature of Avgas is high enough that some of the fuel can make its way into the combustion chamber in liquid form. While this would normally prove to be a liability in most engines it could be useful when you are tuning to the ragged edge. The liquid fuel droplets entering the combustion chamber will leech some heat and help to cool the piston crown. In an engine that is pushing the thermal limits this can be the difference between a win and a holed piston. Some specialty karting fuels like Philips P45 are designed with a large jump at the end of the distillation curve to specifically provide this cooling effect. It’s not uncommon for a fuel with higher octane than Avgas but lower end point temperatures to experience preignition problems long before Avgas. It's the tuning equivalent of making lemonade out of lemons. For engine combinations that aren't near their thermal limits like MX applications this high end temperature just ends up as oil spooge dripping out of the silencer even when the jetting is lean. As I've pointed out time and again, the octane rating of a fuel is just one part of the tuning equation.

The sad fact is given the sorry state of pump fuel today Avgas is looking better all the time even when you aren't pushing the thermal limits.
Here's my short course take on things based on my experience and personal biases, (keep in mind this is pretty generalized)

- In almost every case 100ll Avgas is a better choice than alcohol pump fuels.

- If you don't need the additional octane that 100LL provides, then MTBE based pump premium will tend to provide better throttle than Avgas assuming you have any jetting skill. If you can't jet you're just wasting your time worrying about any of this stuff on a stock bike.

- Mixing 100LL Avgas with a good race gas designed for your application and rpm range is a reasonable way to save some money.

- Mixing alcohol based pump fuels with ANYTHING in an attempt to make it BETTER is just a chemical circle jerk, and if you're that cheap or that ignorant you deserve the crummy performance and the insurmountable jetting problems that you will invariably be blessed with.

- Milspec Avgas is a different animal entirely, but isn't readily available so we won't worry about it.

- If you are running near the thermal limits of your engine combination Avgas may provide a margin of safety that isn't available even in a high-octane fuel with a flat fuel curve.

- The correct race fuel for your application will outperform ANY of the above, regardless of whether the engine is stock or modified. The more demon tweaks hiding in your engine, the more you have to gain.
 

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