Bar oil?

[Whitespider]

I don't know what makes people think bar oil is so special. It is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use. the synthetic 50 wt transmission oil is very expensive stuff and it seems to hold semi truck transmissions together for hundreds of thousands of miles, I'm sure the bar won't mind it.

Ya’ just gotta’ love statements like that.

Transmissions are bathed in oil and their parts aren’t dragged through dry medium (like wood) as they’re being used. Transmissions also don’t subject the oil to near the same centrifugal force (sling-off). Transmissions use precession mated parts and ball/roller bearings. All oils lubricate, but the demands placed on oils used in different applications vary considerably; that’s why we have different types of oils, uniquely blended with their own special additives to match specific requirements. If synthetic 50 wt transmission oil is such great stuff, why don’t you use it in everything… like the rear axle of your car, or in your air compressor?

The problem with oils that sling-off (not enough tackifier additives) is they leave the underside of the bar under-lubricated. Oils without enough film strength additives get wiped from the chain as it cuts, causing a gummy resin like build-up on the cutters. All the while the oil needs to have the proper viscosity to flow through pump, yet remain in the groove and keep the chain/bar cool. And the oil needs to perform all these functions between the sloppiest fit of chain-to-bar, under huge temperature swings, using just a thin film of oil between bar and chain. A comparison of the performance characteristics of transmission oil to bar oil is ridiculous… and the same goes for motor oil, hydraulic oil, or what-have-you. You might as well compare 80w-90 gear lube to power steering fluid.

Now about the belief that bar oil “is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use.”
Let’s just take a look at what some of the producers/marketers of chain and bar oil say about that;

• Bailey’s - …premium bar oil, made from 100 percent virgin blended stocks. …100 percent new and not used or "reclaimed".
• Chevron/Texaco - … tacky, tough, lubricants made from special high viscosity base oils…
• Hi-Tech Oils - … made from a blend of high quality base stocks and selected additives…
• Everclear - Made in the U.S.A in small closely monitored batches to ensure quality control.
• Stihl - … a semi-synthetic high performance lubricant made from high quality base oils (refined oils)…
• Caltex - … made from highly refined high viscosity index base oils…
• Lubriplate - … a unique blend of the finest refined petroleum stocks and additives available…

Yep, sounds like rejected junk to me.

 

[Coldfront]

So there is no tackyness in transmission oil?? Right! You think there is some super secret additive in bar oil the scientists at NASA are working on.

 

[Whitespider]

I did not say there was no tack additive in transmission oil... or in any oil for that matter.
And I don't believe NASA has anything to do with it.

Believe what you want and use what you want...

But making a comparison between oil engineered for a transmission and oil engineered for anything else, including a chainsaw bar, is folly.

What if it was the other way around, and I was recommending the use of bar oil in your transmission? You'd believe me to be an idiot, wouldn't you?

Soooo..... tell me... if one is good for the other, why can't it be the other way around? Why are the specific lubrication requirements more critical for one machine than the other? Why is it OK to use a different-than-specified lubricant in one machine, but not the other? If 80w-120 'seems to hold semi truck rear axles together for hundreds of thousands of miles', it should be perfect for my air compressor instead of the specified 10w compressor oil, correct?

 

[TreeClimber57]

Really?... ...Really?... ...At 5-6 bucks a gallon at the fleet store I can buy around 12-15 gallons of bar & chain oil for the same price of a new bar and chain, and those 12-15 gallon will cut somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-70 cord of firewood. How do you figure it will pay for itself? If it burns up a bar and chain while you're using the first gallon of the "free" stuff, how can you possibly figure it will pay for itself? The way I figure it I would need to use at least 13 gallon of "free" stuff before the bar burned up before I could even think I'd broke-even. Fact is, I've never worn out a bar... worn out a few drive sprockets and the cutters on dozens of chains, but never a bar. Heck man, my Stihl 16" bar has cut so much wood there isn't a speck of paint left on it, it's just bright shiny steel (it's on its second saw)... My 20" is just as old but I don't use it near as much, still has lots of paint on it.

Well; he was speaking of hydraulic oil. Now hydraulic saws are designed by the manafactuer to use hydraulic and ONLY hydraulic oil as the bar & chain lubricant. The last one I bought is an ADI; but has an Oregon bar and chain on it. Now the bars are short; perhaps 14 inches at best on most of them; the saws are rated at 6.5 HP (or almost 5kW) which is not too bad on that size bar That is assuming you have the hydraulic power to push the saw of course.

I am not sure how it would work on a 28 inch bar as an example.. but suspect you could stretch it out to 20 inches without much issue on lubrication.

 

[Whitespider]

TreeClimber57-

A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.

But, I'm giving up on this. Some people just get the idea that oil is just oil, they have no clue how much engineering goes into lubricants designed for each specific application. Besides, I'm sure their Pa' just poured crop oil in his saw and never had a problem... so anything with the word "oil" or "lube" on the can should be just fine. Maybe a mix of powdered graphite, corn oil and Kay-Y jelly......

 

[AIM]

Now about the belief that bar oil “is probably the cheapest reject oil they can possibly use.”
Let’s just take a look at what some of the producers/marketers of chain and bar oil say about that;

• Bailey’s - …premium bar oil, made from 100 percent virgin blended stocks. …100 percent new and not used or "reclaimed".
• Chevron/Texaco - … tacky, tough, lubricants made from special high viscosity base oils…
• Hi-Tech Oils - … made from a blend of high quality base stocks and selected additives…
• Everclear - Made in the U.S.A in small closely monitored batches to ensure quality control.
• Stihl - … a semi-synthetic high performance lubricant made from high quality base oils (refined oils)…
• Caltex - … made from highly refined high viscosity index base oils…
• Lubriplate - … a unique blend of the finest refined petroleum stocks and additives available…

Yep, sounds like rejected junk to me.

It sure does to me.
Every one of those claims says "oils, blends, stocks, PLURAL".
Reads to me like they are using different oils that likely did NOT meet the specs for the original intended purpose and blending them together to get the viscosity they want, adding tacky stuff and waalaa. You have bar oil.
I'm sure they are all new oils.
No doubt they are high quality base stock.
No doubt they are made in closely monitored batches.

I just think that they are "rejects". And they should be. Lubricating a bar is pretty crude stuff in comparison to lubing a diesel engine in a bulldozer.
No one is saying that these oils aren't fit to start a bonfire with. I'm just willing to bet that it is all made with oil that missed whatever mark it was originally intended but never the less. WAY more than adequate for lubing up a chainsaw bar.

 

[TreeClimber57]

A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.

Ah thanks for info makes sense to me. I was wondering how it was doing the job; as a lot thinner oil than the Stihl I use on all other saws.

I still only use the Stihl oil in saws (other than if I happen to run out then will buy what I can find for one container).

We use daily and on professional basis; the reliability of the saws is too important to mess around for the sake of a few cents. And frankly the ones who tend to be the cheapest in this area; are the ones who use the least!! I have a friend who uses used motor oil ?! But, realistically I doubt he would use one large container of Stihl oil in a year. So.. using that little I guess he also would not notice any difference in wear on his bar using that oil either.. Says he has been doing for years.. and has same bar as well for those same years.

 

[Coldfront]

It's funny how if you want to start a big argument here all you need to do is start a topic about bar oil.

 

[zogger]

Degrees

TreeClimber57-

A hydraulic powered chainsaw is a different animal, motor RPM and chain speed is typically less than half that of a 2-cycle gasoline powered saw. A hydraulic powered chainsaw runs around 5000-6500 RPM, a gasoline powered saw runs 12,500-15,000 RPM. The lubrication requirements in both quantity and quality are not comparable... less heat, friction, centrifugal force, etc. Like the difference between a bicycle chain and a motorcycle chain.

But, I'm giving up on this. Some people just get the idea that oil is just oil, they have no clue how much engineering goes into lubricants designed for each specific application. Besides, I'm sure their Pa' just poured crop oil in his saw and never had a problem... so anything with the word "oil" or "lube" on the can should be just fine. Maybe a mix of powdered graphite, corn oil and Kay-Y jelly......

I think the real question was rather innocent and wondering, that's all. Of course purposeful designed anything for a task is the best, but sometimes you might have a "good enough" solution.

Not oil related, but what I am getting at: few weeks ago I was working on a rotary mower, needed a real big crescent wrench or box wrench...didn't have one that size. I *did* have decent access to the nut and bolt, so I used a Moncke wrench on it, a pipe wrench. Perfect and designed for that, nope, did it work good enough, yep.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Bar Oil is Important

It's funny how if you want to start a big argument here all you need to do is start a topic about bar oil.

That's correct. And, that's because very few chainsaw operators know very much about bar oil and certainly much less than WhiteSpider does. WhiteSpider knows what he is talking about.

I've repaired lots of chainsaws damaged by owners using lousy bar oil. They love using crankcase oil because they don't know what to do with leftover crankcase oil. So, they feed that crap to their chainsaw. Then they beg me to give them a discount on the repairs. :msp_sneaky:

 

[Coldfront]

But yet it seems like most will buy the cheapest bar oil they can find. As long as it says bar oil on the jug they will buy it and use it. The synthetic transmission oil I was was talking about is hardly cheap oil, probably 2 or 3 or more times the price of good bar oil per gallon, but I can get it free. I never said one word about using used drain oil.

 

[Whitespider]

I guess I don’t get your reasoning Coldfront.
Just because it’s expensive transmission oil it will make good bar oil? Does that mean that cheap transmission oil won’t? I buy my favorite gun oil in tiny little 4 oz bottles for like 5 bucks… that would be over $150.oo a gallon… so that must be even better bar oil, right? Or how about the K&N oil I buy for my high-performance motorcycle air filter, about 15 bucks for 8 oz… that stuff is real tacky and comes to almost $250.oo a gallon… so that would probably be the best bar oil I’ve got, right?

Ya’ see, transmission oil is engineered to provide the lubricating properties required of a transmission, under the type of stresses a transmission imposes on the oil. If you remember, back in the day, there were two major types of automatic transmission oil… Type F and Dexron. Ford transmissions (and some Jeep/Ramble) used the Type F, and near all others used the Dexron. The two oils looked the same, smelled the same, felt the same, even cost the same… but if you put the wrong one in your transmission you could expect less than 100-miles until catastrophic failure. The difference was in the engineering, the difference was the lubricating requirements of each transmission and type of stresses each placed on the oil, the deference was the friction modifier additive used in each oil. If you bought the most expensive Dexron you could find and put it in your Ford, you killed it… you were much better off using the cheapest Type F you could find... heck, you were better off with old, used Type F.

Just because oil is expensive doesn’t make it good oil for anything except what it was engineered for.
Even the cheapest bar oil makes a better bar oil than the most expensive gun oil, or air filter oil.
The lubricating requirements of a chainsaw bar and chain, the stresses imposed on the oil, and the conditions that oil must perform under are extremely unique… I can’t think of any other machine that compares…

So, if y’all wan’ta go on thinking that bar oil is just cheap crap, and anything else is just as good or better… I guess it’s no skin off my nose… but you’re fooling yourselves. That expensive 50w synthetic transmission oil might work, but I guarantee your taking a performance hit somewhere… maybe in bar life, chain life, power loss, or even how often you have to sharpen the cutters. It’s been my experience in life that cutting corner has always been more expensive in the end.

But, I guess I did say I was done with this thread… didn’t I?

 

[Johny Utah]

I don't think there is much engineering involved in bar oil. It isn't as critical as keeping engine bearings floating on a film of oil in any condition. Canola oil has no engineering involved except as an oil seed and it works just like bar oil and it's cheap.

 

[Coldfront]

Comparing automatic transmission fluid that drives friction clutch discs to power a automatic transmissions to bar oil is silly. This 50 wt is for fuller 10 speed manual transmissions and my bet is that it would surpass wal-mart bar oil in performance by far. You seem to some kind of self proclaimed expert on bar oil but I doubt you know anything about the oil I am talking about.