Biggest perpetuated Myths about Modded Saws.

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Yes, squishing into a tighter chamber causes more compression. The port timing needs to be radically changed since you a raising the piston so much. The limiting factor is gaining way too much intake duration when milling the combustion chamber, unless you build a two piece head.

It is certainly easier to get the higher compression and the squish velocity and also control the squish band width by contouring a separate head than it is working with the existing cylinder head. Too wide a squish band can result in more unburnt end gasses but you have to accept that and take the gains from the higher compression. If the intake duration is already on the long side it is a bit of a balancing act on how much you can drop the cylinder. It is not too hard either to discover daylight shining through the top of the exhaust nozzle! Since moving any of the major dimensions on the jug also changes a bunch of others it makes it much handier to know beforehand exactly how much a given change will affect everything else without actually removing any material. It sure is hard to put it back! I like the predictability of being to arrive at dimensions by calculations. I seem to remember TW saying he could spend a couple of hours measuring up and doing calculations when approaching mods on a saw he has not done before. He feels it is time well spent. I guess everyone does what works for them.
 
Originally Posted by Jacob J.
Over-complicating things is an inherent trait of humans in modern society. At the same time however, some of the biggest problems I've seen with modified saws were from lack of forethought or planning.

___________________________________________________________________
"I agree skill and knowledge is definately required. Also, a scholarly approach is always rewarded.

Fred

Hell, half the guys doing it read at a third grade level. Can it really be that hard???"



It is hard to know whether you are sucking or blowing, Fred, with all your contradictions ! Your score for unbiased objectivity is not good. You appear sometimes to draw whatever conclusions suit your agenda at the moment.

When did we ring your bell Sweetheart? We all know that math isn't your strongpoint.

Actually one of my fairly well developed abilities is trapping rats, Fred. I can spot them even when they are trying to appear to be something else. What would you say is your "strongpoint" Fred?


Okay, now I know the problem. You are one of the third grade readers. Just kidding, this is more like Jr. High comprehension.

Skill and knowledge HAVE LITTLE to do with being able to read for alot of people It must be great to live in a black and white world. sigh..

My stongpoint is standardized tests. LOL

I really haven't found alot that I'm not adequate at. My strong point is adequacy in many fields. There you go.

Now start adding to the actual conversation instead of this BS.

Fred
 
It is certainly easier to get the higher compression and the squish velocity and also control the squish band width by contouring a separate head than it is working with the existing cylinder head. Too wide a squish band can result in more unburnt end gasses but you have to accept that and take the gains from the higher compression. If the intake duration is already on the long side it is a bit of a balancing act on how much you can drop the cylinder. It is not too hard either to discover daylight shining through the top of the exhaust nozzle! Since moving any of the major dimensions on the jug also changes a bunch of others it makes it much handier to know beforehand exactly how much a given change will affect everything else without actually removing any material. It sure is hard to put it back! I like the predictability of being to arrive at dimensions by calculations. I seem to remember TW saying he could spend a couple of hours measuring up and doing calculations when approaching mods on a saw he has not done before. He feels it is time well spent. I guess everyone does what works for them.


See this is a good post.

Fred
 
See this is a good post.

Fred

How patronisingly nice of you to say so Fred. As far as BS goes one need only take a look back through the thread to evaluate who has inconsistancies. jumping to conclusions and trying to discredit things without reading them or understanding. By making exaggerated and inferential statements and holding up only the good examples of of trial and error modifications, (forget about the oops!) you appear to support the premise that trial and error is superior to a more scientific approach. Take the emotional appeal out of those premises and try to support that argument on a purely factual objective basis and see how difficult that would be.

The ability to know beforehand exactly how much a given change will affect everything else without actually removing any material is extremely important:It sure is hard to put it back on! I like the predictability of being able to arrive at necessary dimensions by calculations. If anyone can discredit the value of this process then I will say uncle.
The importance of it is even more critical in evaluating a saw with a different configuration as opposed to merely reproducing results of previous endeavours.

I suggest there are deeper motivating issues at work here than mere mechanics and that is not based on BS. Some people seem to forget about stated intentions they have made in PM's. That is why I suspected at the start of this thread that it had a slant other than helpfullness
 
Wow.

Look up scientific model.

Write me three pages on it.

Then your next assignment will be to look up a type 1 statistical error.

Then I will actually tell you what my thoughts are on the "scientific calculations" you are talking about.

C'e La Vie

Fred
 
Ipsi dixit

Wow, head out of town for a few days.
I am sure you know better than I that ipsi dixit (It is because I say it is) does not cut it when you are trying to disprove someone elses work. I have sent these squish velocity alculations to other builders and to date no one has come up with problems, The calulations have been compaired with results generated from other material developed by "reliable" sources and the results were very close.

I do not intend to try to explan the math and detail every step and calculation, plain and simple it's a waste of tme, were talking a 360 columb array with about 100 lines of formulas, In total over 100,000 calculations.
However I am all for people challenging what ever I bring here, Frankly it pushes me to be as scienticic as posible, double check my facts and be objective in seeing things from other viewpoints.





Fr
ed
I I t\ink it was quite clear that you had a little extra agenda with the tread, some of the areas you were delving into were quite pointed. I think ayone who has been about here for a while would have seen it and realized where the barbs were aimed.

No problem, so you wanted to take a few pokes, what ever. Funny though it always seems you pop up to take these pokes right after one of your "close friends" and I have dissagrements on other sites.

Anyway, thats all a bunch of BS.
 
Who is my friend? PM if you don't have the juice to post it.

Surely a coincidence. My friends can hold their own or don't last too long....

Just because a guy can port a saw doesn't mean they can understand physics.

Don't give me the 100,000s of calculations/great and powerful Oz BS. It doesn't wash with me. You put your chin up in the air by disagreeing--- now cash the check you wrote.

Fred
 
I think you need to do a little cheque cashing your self, seems there is quite a pile of cheques you have written..

Question, how often can you lose credibillity and still be credible? Don't be forgeting who has posted pics of others work passing it off as their own, and who did not take the time to properly read earlier posts before refuting their merit, and who has not presented even a single shred of substantiated information here.

As far as backing up what I have posted no problem, it has already been sent to memebrs here before.

I will not try again to explain every bit of math, you want to learn that stuff you would be better off to learn about arcsin calculations or 2D an #3D geometry from a math book or off a math tutorial site.

Here is how I am getting at the squish velocity numbers.

First off define all variables, bore, stroke, head volume, RPM, rod length, exhaust port height, trapping and charging efficiency, squish height and width, position of combustion chamber, and the angle of the squish band.

From there, I use trig calculations to calculate the position of the crank pin at each degee of rotaton, and from that with the rod length and arcsin calculations find the piston position.

Once I have that, the volume of charge above the piston can be calculated factoring in the geometry of the squish band and chamber. The volume of charge both below the squish and the combustion chamber can be calculated. Also with factoring in the charging and trapping efficiency compression and no fire cylinder pressure can be arived at.

Assuming, as is done with most gas flow calculatins that air can be considdered as non compressable for the purpose of fluid dynamics <0.3 mach. Then the voume of charge can be calculated as it is pushed from the squish area into the center of the chamber. This is done by calculating the volume of charge under the squish nd the center dome at one degee increments. Then by calculating the area of the interface between the volume under the squish band and under the center dome the velocity can be alculated.

Then just set up an array to do the calculations over for every 1 degree increment and graph it.

It is really not that difficult or complicated, but it does need litteally 100 of thousands of calculations.

Just to do 1 degre takes about 100 lines of formulas, most containing 3 or 4 individual calculations, some many more, then multiply that by 360 degrees of rotation .

There are without doubt people out there that know much more than I about this stuff, and likely better software, formulas and calculations out there that what I bring to the table, but I don't see much else concrete or cotradictory being presented.
 
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I will not try again to explain every bit of math, you want to learn that stuff you would be better off to learn about arcsin calculations or 2D an #3D geometry from a math book or off a math tutorial site.

Don't flatter yourself.

I think simple Trig is withinin the grasp of alot of people on this site. I'll print off your post and read it the next trip to the reading room. ;) I wouldn't want to miss anything.

I really am interested in what you've done here.

Fred
 
One thing I know I am not is a math teacher.

I would not call it simple trig, it's a little more than what most learn in highschool and a lot more than most would remember. But the way you are comming off sounds like you have it well in hand, so why not give a crack at explaining how to determine piston postion from crank angle?

Then if you want a challenge,explain calculating velocity through an opening that is changing in size as a non-liniar functin of crank angle based on a pressure differential that is also chainging with crank angle as a non liniar function.

I am not saying it is hard, but it's not easy either.
 
Dude, I have an A in University Physics this semester. Hope my final on Tuesday is atleast a 72 and I'll keep it. Some Universities call it advanced college physics.

Not highschool, but I manage. :dizzy:

Keep your shirt on and I'll respond to your earlier post.

Fred
 
Where does the hydrostatic torque driver fit into all this mumbojombo? Why not just run the darn saw stock with dual port exhaust? But I guess that would be kind of boring, but when you use the saw to make a living it is a little scary to change it much in fear of blowing it up! At over $1000.00 a pop I have just not been brave enough to change things.
 
hmmmm.

a few questions.

TW, in your calculations, are you assuming the combustion chamber is centered? How do you calculate squish velocity for the various radii involved in a non centered combustion chamber?

TW, one of your assumptions is that the air trapped in the squish band is incompressible. Bad news for you. It turns out the air is compressible, and is in fact BEING COMPRESSED, which is the whole point to this excercise. So your calcs are wrong.

TW, it must be fascinating to look at squish velocity over all 360 degrees of rotation, but we really only care about the 10 degrees before top dead center.

In the past 20 years for 2 strokes, there has been a HUGE amount of effort put into maximizing the squish angle.

It turns out in modern 2 strokes, squish is all about reducing detonation. I would invite all interested parties to consider the idea we are after cranking up the dynamic compression as high as absolutely possible without detonation.

5 percent increase sounds pretty neat. How about if we were to increase pumping efficiency by 1 psi? Anyone care to do the math of what that means?

A modern snowmobile makes 170 horsepower from an 800 cc engine. What is the efficiency of that motor?

A modern jetski can make 100 horsepower from 800 cc's without a pipe, and with injecting water into the exhaust.

It seems like lots of you are looking for inconsistencies in MR's comments, but aren't smart enough to follow his use of the english language. Perhaps you could hire someone smarter then you to help out?
 
When all done, the real world says raising the compression means more snap in the midrange for all 2 strokes.

It revs quicker, it is "funner", and it makes more go at rpms lower then peak torque rpm.

but you have to run lower static compression if you want full use of the supercharging of a piped or tuned 2 stroke.

i think this thread is pretty ironic.

when all done, the BIGGEST myth is we all think we have all the answers, but none of us wants to ever say that in public.
 
Why not just run the darn saw stock with dual port exhaust? But I guess that would be kind of boring, but when you use the saw to make a living it is a little scary to change it much in fear of blowing it up! At over $1000.00 a pop I have just not been brave enough to change things.

I felt like that before I ran a modded work saw. I have a stock DP 440 that screams for what it is but it is just that, stock with a opened up muffler. The 460 that Jasha did is just plain bad arse, a 25" bar is nothing for this saw. I thought about modding a saw myself then figured when screw up a $700 saw, like you said. That is when I decided to let him build one, he runs these saws for a living and stood behind it to be very reliable. I know there is not a whole lot involved in making a work saw but if the funds are there, I will be happy to pay a pro to do it. More so when they know what works.

After all that, if you like you stockers, don't ever run a modded saw, your life will change.

I have also had dealings with Fred, a great guy I must say.
 
most of this is way above me.....

but i find it funny how some will take the time to explain stuff, and do it again......

when others post statements, more questions insted of explaining and tell us anyone can understand this simple stuff, but talk up how smart they are....

im slowly understanding TimberWolf and Crofters posts.....very slowly.

Mr. a wise person once said if you cannot explain something simply, you dont know the subject well enough ......

now im sure your a smart guy, but you come across as a bit of a BS'r telling us statements insted of explaining why....

just my opinion and thats all ill say because as far as the subject matter goes im out of my depth, but as a novice reaing posts i am telling you how it is perceived.

cheers, Serg
 
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When all done, the real world says raising the compression means more snap in the midrange for all 2 strokes.

It revs quicker, it is "funner", and it makes more go at rpms lower then peak torque rpm.

but you have to run lower static compression if you want full use of the supercharging of a piped or tuned 2 stroke.

i think this thread is pretty ironic.

when all done, the BIGGEST myth is we all think we have all the answers, but none of us wants to ever say that in public.

Well Doug I have to say I agree with most of this. Occasionally you might hit upon an engine that is already sporting just about the maximum practical compression and there might be little gain to be had by upping the compression unless a bunch of other things were changed. Pushing static compression to the near detonation limits on muffler would very likely put you into definite detonation problems if you put it on pipe.

Saying that "we all think we have all the answers" may be more fact than myth, though really the deeper you get into a subject the more unforseen influences and contradictions you discover. I dont think you will catch many people who have an in depth understanding of any subject, saying that they know all about it. Usually anyone making those kinds of noises either genuinely doesn't recognize his own limitations or is bluffing for effect.

I maintain that modifying an engine for maximum output, while doing the least amount of damage, simply is not that simple.

Success hath many fathers; Failure is always a bastard!
 
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Doug, to me it looks as if your questions are more raised to question my credibility than the credibility of what I have posted, but I'l answer anyway.

Yes, I hae considdered chamber position and shape, and as for position, it is quite simple to accomodate. For example if the chamber is set 2 mm to the rear, I simply run say 4 calculation sets, one with adding 2mm to the squish width for the front exhaust side, one with 2mm subtracted for the rear, and for the sides the width is just a little less than it would be if the chamber was centered, can calculate that or just measure it. Also if I want to get more detail for the squish velocty at any point arround the head, or for an asymetric chamber, the squish widths can be broken up into radial sections and a 2D squish velocity map made. Just take a little more time.

As far as gases being compressible, yes they are and I full well know that, however the context of wat I wrote was very specifically identified and only applies to modeling the gas velocity in the squish interface. Here is what I am getting at, do a little reading about finding gas velocity from pressure differential. When the piston moves up, the volumes of gas below the squish band and chamber are decreased by their respective areas multiplied by how much the piston rises. Key here is the volume of the gas in the squish band is porportionally much smaler than the volume in and below the chamber, and as the piston draws closer to TDC this is exagerated and there is a pressue differential created. This pressure differential can be used to calculate flow velocity and for velocities less than mach ~0.3, it can be assumed that a gas vill behave as a non-compressible liquid. I am sure Fred would have picked this info up in university physics also and can likely explain it as to why.

.Doug, you are right, we would only need to look at 10-20 degrees BTDC to fnd MSV, however, without looking at the trapping phase, compression and cylinder pressures cant be found, and simply put the tool I am working on was and is intended to do more than just look at squish velocity, running through 360 degrees allows loking at, base compression, profiled port time area or angle area numbers, piston acceleration, engne loads and a bunch of other stuff

I agree, it is often hard to follow MR's writtng, but i suspect this is more to do with an effort on his part to cloud the issues and interject ad honimen sidebars than it has to do wth his smarts or high state of education., or my lack of ability to understand issues. Funny Doug, you and MR are a lot a like when it cmes to these ad honimen sidebar attacks.

As for pumping efficiency, I am guessing you don't intend to say a 1 psi increase, most times this is a dimentinless number expressed as a percentage, You want to talk about that sure, but it has nothing to do with sqish calculatons or effects of squish velocity, nor does water injection or pipes other than what is the tolerated compression and desired squish dimentions based on RPM, fuel and the related detonaton issues. Yes squish angle affects squish velocity some and also the way the squish jets interact in the chamber, but also end gas must be considered, esp in motors with dimentions like a chainsaw motor. The effect of end gas alone can make sgnificant difference, there is some good readng on this.
 
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