Buying some woods. How do I finance?

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I'm looking at purchasing 16 acres of woods and I have lots of questions. Not looking to build on it. Just want it as an investment as well as wood cutting, hunting, etc.

-How much do I have to put down on such a loan? 20%? 10%?

- Who has the best loan rates. I live in central Ohio.

- Can I set this up or apply specially for ag/tree farm purposes to keep taxes minimal? Any help would be greatly appreciated. The property is aprox. 15 acres wooded with an acre of 60 foot wide right of way to it. Thanks for any info!
 
I have 17 acres in md . I"m not sure about ohio but i have mine in the (Partnership with nature program ) . Lowers my taxes and i really dont have to do anything . I pay 2,000 per year for house and shop plus barns. I'm allowed to cut wood for burning but no land clearing.
 
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I don't know which program it is but I have been to two different places and asked the owners if they wanted their property harvested. Both said that they would love to have it done but the preivous owner locked up their wood when it was signed up into a program that has to do with trees. I don't know the name of the program but you HAVE READ THE FINE PRINT. The one owner is not allowed to even cut their own fire wood.

Ray
 
Johnny,
Need some more info to get you more accurate info, but depending on your current residence equity situation and what income info you can provide it maybe an an easier presentation to look into a Line of Credit ( on your primary residence) as a finance alternative. Also if you are presenting this as a business to a farm credit office or lending institution you may want to have a very detailed and "profitable" plan in which you expressly present how you intend to repay this loan. A visit to your local 4h agriculture office might be well worth your time. PM me if you need or want to talk mortgages, I've written a few years worth of mortgages and can tell you your path may not ba an easy one without a knowledgable lender involved.

Search "farm credit ohio" and see what google offers.
A
 
Try Farm Credit & the usual loan is 80%.

I just don't understand these restrictions y'all are talking about...my 100ac has none. I have owned my land here in E TN since '01 & never heard of any retstrictions except the rights sold to a logging company which always have a expiration date.

RD
 
Try Farm Credit & the usual loan is 80%.

I just don't understand these restrictions y'all are talking about...my 100ac has none. I have owned my land here in E TN since '01 & never heard of any retstrictions except the rights sold to a logging company which always have a expiration date.

RD
Well let's see..
there are Deed Restrictions, municipal restrictions, state and federal as well. Local building and zoning codes to consider. Slave graves and any possible indian property rights ect....

Oh I'm sorry you're not in the North East....none of those might apply, but then again they may. Never hurts to do your due diligence with any major purchases especially if it is an "investment"...
 
As far as taxes...Ohio does have a "Tree Farm" program that gets you into the CAUV tax bracket. It involves working with a forester...some inspections...and a long-term plan for the woods. Meaning select-cut harvest and maintaining a wild life habitat. You have to have property boundries marked and also have to cut grapevines to get into the program. So, when you buy it should be surveyed. Make sure you mark your lines while the surveryers stakes are still up with ribbon. Makes it alot easier to find accurate lines than digging for pins and guessing lines.
 
I just talked to the local Ag credit services. By their guidelines I cannot borrow from them. I'm not an ag business or do not show a profit from ag on my taxes was the reason. Their current interest rate was 7% for a twenty year note (if anyone is interested). I'll try a few commercial banks next. Someone has to have money to loan for this purpose, right?
 
Just want it as an investment

I'll try a few commercial banks next. Someone has to have money to loan for this purpose, right?

Probably not.

First, you shouldn't take out a loan for an "investment" that isn't producing an actual cash flow sufficient to cover the loan. Something like a rental property, or even farmland where you can show the bank you expect to harvest and market $XX every year. Even then it's risky, but a legitimate investment.

Taking a loan to pay for something that doesn't pay you back isn't wise. We do it with residential mortgages because it's either that or pay rent, so it's a trade-off.

Let's say the property is worth $100,000 today. 7% interest rate on the note. You'll pay $188,785 over the next 20 years to own it. Annual payments will by $9,439.

(I'm just assuming $100,000 to make all the math easier)

Take that $9,439. Let's round that down to $9,000 assuming you'll need to buy a load of logs each year for your firewood since you don't own the woodlot.

Let's put that $9,000 in fairly safe investment portfolio that's appreciates, on average, 5% per year. Back in the early 2000s we used to assume 10% for young folks, so even now 5% should be very doable. 20 years of investing $9,000 @ 5% = $297,593 in easily sold assets.

Unless the land is in area where development pressure isn't currently but will be soon, I would think it rising in value by 3 times over the next 20 years is a darn poor assumption.

Second, banks tend not like land as collateral for itself.

When I bought my house there had to be some sharp pencils on the appraisal some put more value in the land then the house. But the bank won't lend if the land made up too high of a proportion of the loan.

It's always easier to sell a residence then raw land even in a bad market like today. Again, folks need a place to live, they don't need woodlands.

If you don't have the cash to buy the land, but that's your goal, I'd say start putting the money aside in investments like "Index mutual funds." To use for what the next step is you don't want them as retirement 401(k) or IRAs.

Because in 10 years you take your portfolio statement to the bank and say, "Ok, I want to buy this land for $120,000."

"We don't lend on land, do you have any collateral for a personal loan?"

"Why yes I do this $115,000 in mutual funds."

"Hmmm, a loan will be $950 a month, how do we know you're good for that?"

"Because for the last 10 years I've been putting $750 into the mutual funds every single month."

The bankers will probably be your best buddies by about this point in the conversation.
 
Try Farm Credit & the usual loan is 80%.

I just don't understand these restrictions y'all are talking about...my 100ac has none. I have owned my land here in E TN since '01 & never heard of any retstrictions except the rights sold to a logging company which always have a expiration date.

RD

I think they may be referring to Preservation Restrictions. Which is when the previous owner signed up to agree to preserve his/her property, which offers a tax credit, but also agrees to keep the land "natural". Usually this is with a local municipality or society. Varying levels of restrictions are possible.
 
Thanks for the feedback, Dalmation. I should probably state that it is "investment property" last and more importantly a woodlot, hunting plot, getaway for the family and I first.

I agree with your investment advice to a point. I unfortunately have a dire outlook on our economy and am looking at this as a bit of a hedge investment where as I will have something concrete if everything crashes.

I've been investing in 403b's for over ten years now and am just now getting back to what my principle investment contributions are. Hardly the 8 to ten percent I was told then and not even the "conservative" 5 percent you've suggested. It has been more like 0% or less. Now I know we had a huge blip and I'm not yanking all my money from going to the 403b. But some will be used for this purpose. It's not a huge investment(under 40,000), but one I can't pay for entirely out of pocket so we'll see what happens. Thanks for the help!
 
Contact your local USDA office before you buy and find out what programs are open in your area. Then try to fit the land to the program. They may also know of some land coming up for sale. There is free money out there. The best of luck to you.
 
Land loans are tough. Unless you put a good chunk down or the property is worth way more than your financing,or you're tieing it in with a construction loan, it's risky for banks, credits unions etc. to loan mnoney on raw land. Owner financing may be a solution if the owner is agreeable.
 
Good financing advice here.

At the same time you need to know what you're buying. Hire a consulting forester to walk the land. Get Title info BEFORE signing: easements, ownership and history of abutters, registered survey boundaries. Look up the deed history at the county Registry of Deeds. Be careful about history of land use: you will be responsible for any cleanup after you own. Think oil, dumps, past usage. Do your own Due Diligence by asking neighbors, stopping by the town hall, wander around the area.

Forget "investment" as was said, you buy it for your use now and in the future.

Good luck.
 
I bought my 18 acres in March 08'. Seems like I might have hit the very bottom of the real estate crash in this area. I haven't seen another property listed in my area at under $4000 per acre since.

The bank that I do business with was happy to extend a 30 year note on the land provide I put down 20%. The land generated a tillable income of roughly half the mortgage. The rest I figure as hunting/woodcollecting/general relaxation and possible future profit payment. The taxes are $45 this year, so very minimal.

If you have a good relationship with your bank, that is where I would start. If not, go to one of the lender sites on the net and see what kind of loan offers might be out there. I have never really cared where I borrow money from just who will extend credit at the cheapest rate.
 
I'm glad to see that you are trying to investing your money in something tangible. Land, historically, has always increased in value even in tough times. The bad news is that banks rarely care if you think that it's a good investment to buy land. They have to keep in mind the possibility that they will get stuck holding a dead duck if you default the loan, and believe it or not heavily wooded ground is not as easily sold for development.

On the other hand, accrued value is the same wether it is on 15 acres or some investment portfolio. I think you are on the right track as investments such as stocks, hedge funds, ect. are the reason why we are in the mess that we are in. In most cases in order to get an interest rate of 5% annually on money in some sort of long term account you have to tie that money up for many years or pay early withdrawl pennalties or taxes as the case may be. I had a 401K and I wish I had done something better with it. If you want a place to cut and have future possibilities the land is you best bet. Besides that if you want to invest money in it do the smart thing and bury money in mason jars out there! JJuday
 
Thanks for the advice all. I appreciate the feedback! I'm still investigating but I've used some of the earlier comments to help. I've talked to the local USDA and they have put me in touch with the local forester for a walk through to qualify for their programs. But first and foremost, I talked to a local bank who I've done business with for many years. They prefer 35% down for such an investment but he knows me and my family(local helps!) so he's looking at my credit and income, equity info to see if they can do better. Sounds like they can, I'm just anxious to see how much.

The purchase price is what has me moving on this one. $2500 an acre is an extremely fair deal in this flat, fertile aggressively sought after agricultural area. It does have it's wet spots, but is not swampy which is good. It was logged some 8 years ago and the majority of the trees are sugar maple (with some pin oak and shagbark hickory mixed in) which is the "bad". Was hoping for mostly oak. The biggest factor is its close to home and I know its history well(grew up half mile from it) so I'd really like to pull the trigger. Just have to make the right decision as I have plenty of other things the money could be spent on too. Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep posting what I learn so that others going through this might benefit too.
 
Thanks for the advice all. I appreciate the feedback! I'm still investigating but I've used some of the earlier comments to help. I've talked to the local USDA and they have put me in touch with the local forester for a walk through to qualify for their programs. But first and foremost, I talked to a local bank who I've done business with for many years. They prefer 35% down for such an investment but he knows me and my family(local helps!) so he's looking at my credit and income, equity info to see if they can do better. Sounds like they can, I'm just anxious to see how much.

The purchase price is what has me moving on this one. $2500 an acre is an extremely fair deal in this flat, fertile aggressively sought after agricultural area. It does have it's wet spots, but is not swampy which is good. It was logged some 8 years ago and the majority of the trees are sugar maple (with some pin oak and shagbark hickory mixed in) which is the "bad". Was hoping for mostly oak. The biggest factor is its close to home and I know its history well(grew up half mile from it) so I'd really like to pull the trigger. Just have to make the right decision as I have plenty of other things the money could be spent on too. Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep posting what I learn so that others going through this might benefit too.

Jhonny,

Get ahold of Greenstone Farm credit co-op. They specialize in farm and recreational/Timber land, and are a hell of a resource.

Rates are better than any bank, and you will get a dividend check annually from participation.

While you are working with the USDA, set an appointment with the NRCS folks as well, as there are several conservation cost share programs for woodlots, that might help in your improvements to the place.
Lotsa good folks in the NRCS offices that can point you in the right direction even if you don't qualify for any programs.

FSA has some interesting loans available at really low rates if you qualify, but do your homework... several guys here jumped in waaaay over thier heads and the piper came calling.

Good luck to ya!
Tillable land is still holding value or rising, while the rest is still in the tank.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote
 
A few months ago I went to our local bank who we have a very good relationship with and spoke with the president - no one else was avail on a Fri afternoon (everyone else was out for Spring Break). He understood my desire to purchase land as a tangible asset for the following reasons: they're not making any more of it, wanted it for my boy/ future children/ wood lot/ selective cut/ rent tillable acerage out/ rent pasture out, etc.

Bottom line was even though we have great credit if it was going to be an investment I would need a solid business plan. Renting pasture/ tillable acerage was not said "solid business plan" in their mind.

That put us in the "Land Loan" category. 30% down, 7-8% APR for 15-20 years absolute max he said. 50 or so acres at that rate - just can't justify it.

We're just saving the $ now.
 
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