Carbs ethanol mix

[MacAttack]

The funny thing about the ethanol argument, people will sometimes refuse to believe ethanol is the cause of these problems and cling to alternative theories. Even my own brother, wouldn't listen to me, until the fuel lines rotted off his string trimmer, and the carburetor plugged up on his snowblower, now he's buying the ethanol-free.
They do not put ethanol in aviation gas, and they've made available ethanol-free fuel for marinas...because it destroys plastic fuel tanks, attacks rubber gaskets, diaphragms and metering needles, and it causes gas to degrade quickly. This is just common knowledge in those industries.
As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they want to, it's not my equipment getting ethanol put in it.

 

[LoneOak]

And RFG limits aromatics content..
And RFG is only mandated in 9 major cites-Baltimore, Chicago, Hartford, Houston, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York City, Philadelphia, and San Diego.
If you live outside these areas your not seeing RFG fuel in all likelihood.
The overall level of ignorance in fuels in this country is ridiculous and some posters on this thread are a great example.
I'm actually making gasoline for fun and profit as I type this. Latest lab results show nearly zero benzene and xylene and single digit toluene levels. Benzene, Toluene and Xylene are the aromatics that can be found in gasoline BTW.

"And RFG limits aromatics content.." WRONG! The RFG program mandates the use of Oxygenated fuels in areas selected by the EPA following the "Clean Air Act".

"And RFG is only mandated in 9 major cites-Baltimore, Chicago, Hartford, Houston, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York City, Philadelphia, and San Diego." Mostly correct, there are actually 11 States that are mandated, some states have multiple cities.


"If you live outside these areas your not seeing RFG fuel in all likelihood". WRONG! There are 27 areas in 15 states to Opt-In too the RFG program.

Not only can States Opt-In too the RFG program, but they can also implement their own.

"The overall level of ignorance in fuels in this country is ridiculous and some posters on this thread are a great example". Thank you for joining the conversation bwalker!

"I'm actually making gasoline for fun and profit as I type this. Latest lab results show nearly zero benzene and xylene and single digit toluene levels. Benzene, Toluene and Xylene are the aromatics that can be found in gasoline BTW".
Interesting! Care to Share? Yes those are a few of the Aromatic Hydrocarbons that get added to automotive gasoline, but you forgot one "Ethylbenzene" and the acronym for those compounds is B.T.E.X.

 

[LoneOak]

The funny thing about the ethanol argument, people will sometimes refuse to believe ethanol is the cause of these problems and cling to alternative theories. Even my own brother, wouldn't listen to me, until the fuel lines rotted off his string trimmer, and the carburetor plugged up on his snowblower, now he's buying the ethanol-free.
They do not put ethanol in aviation gas, and they've made available ethanol-free fuel for marinas...because it destroys plastic fuel tanks, attacks rubber gaskets, diaphragms and metering needles, and it causes gas to degrade quickly. This is just common knowledge in those industries.
As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they want to, it's not my equipment getting ethanol put in it.

Didn't you say that Oxy-RFG was not available in your area of NY?

 

[LoneOak]

The funny thing about the ethanol argument, people will sometimes refuse to believe ethanol is the cause of these problems and cling to alternative theories. Even my own brother, wouldn't listen to me, until the fuel lines rotted off his string trimmer, and the carburetor plugged up on his snowblower, now he's buying the ethanol-free.
They do not put ethanol in aviation gas, and they've made available ethanol-free fuel for marinas...because it destroys plastic fuel tanks, attacks rubber gaskets, diaphragms and metering needles, and it causes gas to degrade quickly. This is just common knowledge in those industries.
As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they want to, it's not my equipment getting ethanol put in it.

because it destroys plastic fuel tanks, attacks rubber gaskets, diaphragms and metering needles, and it causes gas to degrade quickly. This is just common knowledge in those industries.
I have been using E30 (that's 30% Ethanol 70% Gasoline) In all of my O. P. E. for 3 yrs.....Still waiting for something bad to happen.
I also have been using E50 (50% Ethanol 50% Gasoline) in 3 of my vehicles for 3 yrs, my Armada runs E85 full time......Still waiting for something bad to happen there too.

 

[LoneOak]

WTF is O. P. E. censored? Outdoor Power Equipment????

 

[MacAttack]

Didn't you say that Oxy-RFG was not available in your area of NY?

I think we are talking about 2 different things, you have been citing "reformulated" or "RFG" gas and it's makeup as the cause of fuel-related issues in small engines. This does not seem to be mutually inclusive of gasoline that is blended with ethanol. Per the EPA website:

"RFG is required in cities with high smog levels and is optional elsewhere. RFG is currently used in 16 states and the District of Columbia. About 25 percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is reformulated."

The % of gasoline in this country that contains ethanol is a hell of a lot more than 25%. I would bet 95 - 99% based on the availability of ethanol-free that I have seen.

So per the sources both of us have shared, Western NY is not listed as an area that is mandated or opted-in to "reformulated" gas as defined by the EPA, but we do have mostly ethanol-blended gasoline. The ethanol-free is less common and can sometimes cost a dollar more per gallon. Around here, there is 10% ethanol gas (most common), 15% ethanol, and ethanol free.

 

[660catman]

I have never used ethanol fuel in any of my seasonal equipment. Improper treatment of fuel before storage has always been the culprit for killing carbs and such. It’s just worse if you don’t treat the ethanol fuels. Sure you need to store fuel in a sealed container but my sleds and quads have fuel vent lines. It’s the fuel in those tanks that suck the moisture out of the air. My oldest quad is a 2003 and I have never removed the carb. And I have never had a fuel related issue with my equipment be it my chainsaw which has never been apart or ice auger.


Retired guy from SE Manitoba

 

[MacAttack]

because it destroys plastic fuel tanks, attacks rubber gaskets, diaphragms and metering needles, and it causes gas to degrade quickly. This is just common knowledge in those industries.
I have been using E30 (that's 30% Ethanol 70% Gasoline) In all of my O. P. E. for 3 yrs.....Still waiting for something bad to happen.
I also have been using E50 (50% Ethanol 50% Gasoline) in 3 of my vehicles for 3 yrs, my Armada runs E85 full time......Still waiting for something bad to happen there too.

If you use the ethanol gas quickly enough, it doesn't hurt anything, and especially in fuel injected vehicles (cars) it doesn't seem to matter as much.
If it sits for any length of time, such as over the winter, things start to go bad. If you don't believe me about the fuel cells in boats call any marina and ask them. As soon as ethanol was introduced it was a disaster.

 

[LoneOak]

I think we are talking about 2 different things, you have been citing "reformulated" or "RFG" gas and it's makeup as the cause of fuel-related issues in small engines. This does not seem to be mutually inclusive of gasoline that is blended with ethanol. Per the EPA website:

"RFG is required in cities with high smog levels and is optional elsewhere. RFG is currently used in 16 states and the District of Columbia. About 25 percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is reformulated."

The % of gasoline in this country that contains ethanol is a hell of a lot more than 25%. I would bet 95 - 99% based on the availability of ethanol-free that I have seen.

So per the sources both of us have shared, Western NY is not listed as an area that is mandated or opted-in to "reformulated" gas as defined by the EPA, but we do have mostly ethanol-blended gasoline. The ethanol-free is less common and can sometimes cost a dollar more per gallon. Around here, there is 10% ethanol gas (most common), 15% ethanol, and ethanol free.

Reformulated Gasoline is Gasoline that does not contain lead or a lead substitute. If the fuel you purchase at the pump is labeled as containing up to 10% Ethanol, it is Oxy-RFG; Oxygenated Gasoline. Sold across 90% of the U.S.

 

[LoneOak]

I have never used ethanol fuel in any of my seasonal equipment. Improper treatment of fuel before storage has always been the culprit for killing carbs and such. It’s just worse if you don’t treat the ethanol fuels. Sure you need to store fuel in a sealed container but my sleds and quads have fuel vent lines. It’s the fuel in those tanks that suck the moisture out of the air. My oldest quad is a 2003 and I have never removed the carb. And I have never had a fuel related issue with my equipment be it my chainsaw which has never been apart or ice auger.


Retired guy from SE Manitoba

What do you mean by "Treatment" I don't add anything to my E30 or E50. Some of my E30 is mixed with 2 cycle oil that will feed my chainsaws, weed eaters. I do not drain the tanks for any of my equipment. I have been in this mode for the past 3 Yrs, since I started using higher ethanol content fuels. My equipment operates just as well now as it did when I put it away.

 

[Chevboy0167]

This guy....this guy is going places...LOL

 

[LoneOak]

If you use the ethanol gas quickly enough, it doesn't hurt anything, and especially in fuel injected vehicles (cars) it doesn't seem to matter as much.
If it sits for any length of time, such as over the winter, things start to go bad. If you don't believe me about the fuel cells in boats call any marina and ask them. As soon as ethanol was introduced it was a disaster.

This guy....this guy is going places...LOL

I used to like that guy!!! But like so many other people, they only know what they see. They see that **** in their tanks, carbs, fuel cans; and they also see the word ETHANOL plastered across every fuel pump in the U.S. And with simple logic "Connect the Dots" so to speak. But they don't see the other words on that fuel pump that dispense that fuel: Benzene, Toluene, Ethylbenzene, Xylene. All far more caustic, and destructive to plastics, rubbers, and Aluminum than ethanol is.

 

[LoneOak]

If you use the ethanol gas quickly enough, it doesn't hurt anything, and especially in fuel injected vehicles (cars) it doesn't seem to matter as much.
If it sits for any length of time, such as over the winter, things start to go bad. If you don't believe me about the fuel cells in boats call any marina and ask them. As soon as ethanol was introduced it was a disaster.

That is Exactly the attitude "Big Oil" wants you to have!! And for as long as Americans (canadiens too) maintain that attitude, "Big Oil" can be less scared about being completely replaced by Alcohol.

 

[TBS]

Let's just admit that people don't maintain their equipment like they claim they do in most cases. Every carburetor let's in air when the fuel evaporates and that lets in water.

 

[660catman]

What do you mean by "Treatment" I don't add anything to my E30 or E50. Some of my E30 is mixed with 2 cycle oil that will feed my chainsaws, weed eaters. I do not drain the tanks for any of my equipment. I have been in this mode for the past 3 Yrs, since I started using higher ethanol content fuels. My equipment operates just as well now as it did when I put it away.

I use Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer in my equipment. During the year of use I add Seafoam. Up here in my part of Canada we only have E10 in 87 or 89 octane. Premium fuel which has zero ethanol has octane level of 91.


Retired guy from SE Manitoba

 

[MacAttack]

I used to like that guy!!! But like so many other people, they only know what they see. They see that **** in their tanks, carbs, fuel cans; and they also see the word ETHANOL plastered across every fuel pump in the U.S. And with simple logic "Connect the Dots" so to speak. But they don't see the other words on that fuel pump that dispense that fuel: Benzene, Toluene, Ethylbenzene, Xylene. All far more caustic, and destructive to plastics, rubbers, and Aluminum than ethanol is.

That is Exactly the attitude "Big Oil" wants you to have!! And for as long as Americans (canadiens too) maintain that attitude, "Big Oil" can be less scared about being completely replaced by Alcohol.

Ok.

It was an interesting discussion but not going to waste my time convincing anyone of the obvious. The project farm video demonstrates exactly what we have all experienced first hand.

 

[bwalker]

"And RFG limits aromatics content.." WRONG! The RFG program mandates the use of Oxygenated fuels in areas selected by the EPA following the "Clean Air Act".

"And RFG is only mandated in 9 major cites-Baltimore, Chicago, Hartford, Houston, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, New York City, Philadelphia, and San Diego." Mostly correct, there are actually 11 States that are mandated, some states have multiple cities.
View attachment 935746

"If you live outside these areas your not seeing RFG fuel in all likelihood". WRONG! There are 27 areas in 15 states to Opt-In too the RFG program.
View attachment 935747View attachment 935748View attachment 935749
Not only can States Opt-In too the RFG program, but they can also implement their own.
View attachment 935750
"The overall level of ignorance in fuels in this country is ridiculous and some posters on this thread are a great example". Thank you for joining the conversation bwalker!

"I'm actually making gasoline for fun and profit as I type this. Latest lab results show nearly zero benzene and xylene and single digit toluene levels. Benzene, Toluene and Xylene are the aromatics that can be found in gasoline BTW".
Interesting! Care to Share? Yes those are a few of the Aromatic Hydrocarbons that get added to automotive gasoline, but you forgot one "Ethylbenzene" and the acronym for those compounds is B.T.E.X.

Benzene is mandated by the EPA to very low levels because it is a known carcinogen. The Benzene Reduction Unit scrubs Benzene and EB from the gasoline pool. Refineries had to install BRU's years ago to meet EPA standards.
The fact of the matter is RFG accounts for a small part of the country's gasoline pool.
The problems associated with ethanol are caused by ethanol. Not BTX. There was no problems prior to ethanol being used and after alead was phased out in the late 80's often gasoline did have very high BTX levels.
You are googling and speculating without any first hand knowledge of the industry.

 

[RedneckChainsawRepair]

Talking about this same thing elsewhere.

Some info to save by Bob aka spike60

It's definitely the ethanol. Some of the variables being discussed here are due to the fact that all fuel lines are not the same as far as the material being used. Since 2006 most Husky/Jonsered fuel lines were reformulated by using what i think was called "hydrogenated nitril" to make them more resistant to the effects of ethanol. At the time, this was mostly the curly "pig tail" line that was used in most 300 series saws, and still used in the 372's and 455/460 ranchers. They have since moved to model specific molded fuel lines for the 440 and 450 chassis and all of the 500 series saws and I can't remember that I've ever seen an ethanol failure with these newer lines. Not really sure what they are made of, but obviously improved.

The clear line used on the Poulan stuff is horrible, and prone to exactly wat was described in the opening post. Dry, almost turns to powder inside the tank. (It's clear when installed, but never stays that way.) The Poulan based 136/141 saws which I really hate to see come in, mostly have the same issue: Fuel line rotted and broken off right where it comes into the tank. Only model left that has yet to solve this problem is the Red Max based T435. Still see them lose the fuel filter in the tank and then clog the carb screen with sawdust.