Ceramic coated cylinder, 066 project, first look...

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1 of 1 = PROTOTYPE.........input = changes....... In my mind they are testing coating.............before you get on your soapbox again and damn the product before it ever makes it into production just take a deep breath.........

That's not what Randy said at all. I understood from the OP that this was their response to his complaints. Until they fix the port shapes and combustion chamber, it's not a usable cylinder, in my opinion. It is not worth risking a $1100 saw with foundational defects that this cylinder has. Hopefully Randy will keep complaining. Maybe they'll eventually listen and get it right.
 
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Interesting. Wonder how the rings will seat.

The company I work for has a plasma torch (as in 105 KW, 4,000+ degrees F, ei FREAKING HOT)

Anyways, I do all the internal design for the torch and we use it to melt powders to deposit on a substrate. Process is called thermal spray

For example you can put a tungsten carbide coating (extreme high wear) on hydraulic rams and cylinders instead of chrome

I'm wondering if this coating could be something like that?

Anyways good luck to the company I hope it works out

Most likely. There's a couple shops doing a Silicon-Carbide coating on cylinders with steel sleeves to get the sleeve to act like a chrome or Nikasil plated bore.
 
Most likely. There's a couple shops doing a Silicon-Carbide coating on cylinders with steel sleeves to get the sleeve to act like a chrome or Nikasil plated bore.


We're getting loader bucket cutting edges now with some type of carbide sprayed in strips on the bottom. There isn't much carbide there but they outwear a normal edge about three to one.

I just wonder if maybe ceramic is TOO hard? Very interested to see how this works in the real world. Good to see them trying improvements.
 
Interesting thread. If somebody wants to put one on a 460 or a 660 and send it to me I'll give it a good workout. I wouldn't trust it for a falling saw until the technology proves itself, but I'll make sure it gets run hard on the landing. Real world conditions, work environment, a user who won't baby the saw, and an unbiased report. You get the saw back when it blows up or when we get rained out this winter.

Takers?
 
This is quite interesting. I am a big fan of products adaptable to fine ceramics integration. background for anyone interested

Ceramic engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


increase wear resistance and heat resistance would be some of the plusses for use in a cylinder

Had a friend back in the late 80s didn't even have to finish college and took an offer from one of those quasi secret mil/industrial outfits to work on "things" Basically he said it was insane ridiculous stupid money so he took the job offer. he was telling me at the time that it was getting possible to develop a real high heat tolerant engine (like a vehicle engine) that could run with no extra anything for cooling, that it would run better at extreme high temps.

That's it, he moved away, lost contac tand about all I know about it, condensed to "neat stuff"

common nikasil is actually a ceramic, silicon carbide, once the rings seat and wear the nickel off.....

So, not sure what this new coating is, but, good luck! Hope the other design issues get addressed
 
The company I work for has a plasma torch (as in 105 KW, 4,000+ degrees F, ei FREAKING HOT)

Anyways, I do all the internal design for the torch and we use it to melt powders to deposit on a substrate. Process is called thermal spray

Interesting ...... I use an oxy/acetylene setup which melts powders and deposits on cast metals. Called flame spray, and not as hot. Any heat treatment required before or after ?
 
Interesting thread. If somebody wants to put one on a 460 or a 660 and send it to me I'll give it a good workout. I wouldn't trust it for a falling saw until the technology proves itself, but I'll make sure it gets run hard on the landing. Real world conditions, work environment, a user who won't baby the saw, and an unbiased report. You get the saw back when it blows up or when we get rained out this winter.

Takers?

I thought you were retired? :poke:
 
I'm confused. I know I'm going to catch of flack for this, but seriously. How is this kit an improvement if it has so many serious problems. Squish is .048"-.061" with a gasket. Not only is that WAY excessive in clearance, but it varies .013". The exhaust port roof is admittedly way too flat. The intake port shape is way off. I just don't understand why we are praising changes that do nothing to address the real problems. Ceramic coating does nothing to address these issues. I'M NOT JUST HERE TO RAIN ON YOUR PARADE! Tell them to fix the foundational design flaws first. I don't care what kind of warranty they offer if the initial quality isn't there. That topend is worth a whole lot less than the rest of the saw should it grenade and take everything else out. Unfortunately, I speak from experience:(

1 of 1 = PROTOTYPE.........input = changes....... In my mind they are testing coating.............before you get on your soapbox again and damn the product before it ever makes it into production just take a deep breath.........

That's not what Randy said at all. I understood from the OP that this was their response to his complaints. Until they fix the port shapes and combustion chamber, it's not a usable cylinder, in my opinion. It is not worth risking a $1100 saw with foundational defects that this cylinder has. Hopefully Randy will keep complaining. Maybe they'll eventually listen and get it right.

Too late....

What a piece of ####!! no no JK.;) If this is just a test cylinder then I understand the flaws. I'm interested to see how the coating behaves.

My point exactly..........repped....

It's gonna be OK........we don't have to buy one if we don't want to. :msp_sneaky:

Well said........got you too......
 
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I like the concept, I would like to see some timing numbers though. I would definitely be interested in one for a 460 platform.

Great thread.
 
I just ported another Mako std bore jug last night.......damn I like those jugs. They ought to coat that one.......or at least look at it to see how the shape the ports. :msp_mellow:
 
I like the concept, I would like to see some timing numbers though. I would definitely be interested in one for a 460 platform.

Great thread.

Hhmmnnnnnnnn ..........
Concept is what I am interested in, but definately not interested in another example unless/untill the coating is available to be used on a ported cylinder. I want ported, and not just "any port job" .......... Terry did an 044/046 hybrid for me, and thats the cylinder I want to see coated. Not some square port irregular wannabee.

I do want to see how the cylinder holds up, but I suspect we will be seeing a ring snagged @ high RPM under a load while real hot before too long. The ceramic will keep alot more heat in the cylinder and at the piston crown. If the rings hold up, and a colder plug is used, the piston might doo OK, but the top ring will see alot more heat and might overheat. I have had too many nitrous and forced induction failures in the old days to remember, but the lessons learned about cylinder heat wont fade.

Tune it fat Randy, so fat that any little turn CCW will make it 4 stroke in the cut ........... good luck & watching with great interest !

Thanks for keeping us in the loop!!!!!
Reppin ya - for all you do for us dirty grubs trying to make ends meet !!
 
I just ported another Mako std bore jug last night.......damn I like those jugs. They ought to coat that one.......or at least look at it to see how the shape the ports. :msp_mellow:

Exactely !!!!!!!!
Take a cylinder from a great hack, and coat it !!!!!!
 
I'm confused. I know I'm going to catch of flack for this, but seriously. How is this kit an improvement if it has so many serious problems. Squish is .048"-.061" with a gasket. Not only is that WAY excessive in clearance, but it varies .013". The exhaust port roof is admittedly way too flat. The intake port shape is way off. I just don't understand why we are praising changes that do nothing to address the real problems. Ceramic coating does nothing to address these issues. I'M NOT JUST HERE TO RAIN ON YOUR PARADE! Tell them to fix the foundational design flaws first. I don't care what kind of warranty they offer if the initial quality isn't there. That topend is worth a whole lot less than the rest of the saw should it grenade and take everything else out. Unfortunately, I speak from experience:(

WOW... wake up this morning, have a coffee and check the site... not only did this thread blow up, so did Brad!

I'm testing the coating, nothing more. Without a test how can there be improvements? Rarely is a first try perfect...
You have taken no chances and continue to do so, I wished your efforts to improve the quality and functions of a cylinder were directed to a company who listen to your "experience" instead of it being wasted on deaf ears. Nikasil was "new" at one time and now is the preferred coating, who tested that... someone did.

Companies want an innovative product, cutting edge design and later refine that approach to develop a solid market. They start somewhere... I just wished that every time one of these threads came up... normally started my me, you didn't take it so personal. Several years ago when you tested that Meteor kit that was so bad, if that input actually was used, where would we be now? A five year head start ... wow, the potential!

This is a test of the coating, to see if the kit will run "as is" out of the box. Not everybody will buy one of these or get it ported... we are a VERY small percentage of users, most just want a kit at a reduced rate, easy to install and last a while to feel like we "got a good deal".... that's it. They could care less of port shape... you want it perfect, they want to sell a cylinder that is acceptable, a cost effective replacement... nothing more.

We can help them or just run them down and get ... another pile of :poop: WHEN I wake up every morning I choose to have a good day and help someone have a better day... and probably why they asked me.

This company gets an honest test with real conditions. I get to give them feedback and influence that product. My tree guys get a freebie, may not be as good as one of your saws, but it should cut wood and make him money. It could be a great product and maybe, just maybe........ become the industry standard. This coating, the flat exhaust roof, excessive heat that melts pistons.... the end to ring damage, ports may become square with little beveling, never buy another cylinder.....That's worth the risk in my book!

Have you called Stihl and asked them to fix their functional design yet... after all, that is why you port cylinders isn't it... to correct a functional design? Your directing your talent in the wrong direction, I say that because I know your a very smart man and very talented in this type of work, years ahead of most!

Aftermarket companies are here to stay gentleman, here because of failing OEM products, cheaper production costs, competition in the market, advanced production technologies and ....

I'm having another cup of coffee..... good morning to you all..... it's a beautiful day!
 
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