I was wondering what the collective brain trust of AS thinks is more important, a super sharp chain or a ported-n-polished engine. For example, would it be better to have a ported 066 with a standard round-ground chain or a stock 066 with a diamond-honed, square-ground chisel chain. For the time investment, where are the pay backs when comparing engine mods versus an "nth degree" sharpened chain. Obviously, the best combination is a modified saw with a wicked sharp chain, but if one had to choose, what would the choice be?
chain or engine
- Thread starter rmihalek
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm not an expert, BUT, since you asked.
I file my chain with a goofy file (which I've learned isn't the best since I've been learning), Square ground chain. I run a stock Husky 288 (88 cc) and smoked a Stihl 090 (137 cc) in our little competition year before last (I don't want to talk about last year). He was using round ground chisel chain.
I am a firm believer that the chain is one of the biggest factors. However I have learned that there is no replacement for displacement.
I file my chain with a goofy file (which I've learned isn't the best since I've been learning), Square ground chain. I run a stock Husky 288 (88 cc) and smoked a Stihl 090 (137 cc) in our little competition year before last (I don't want to talk about last year). He was using round ground chisel chain.
I am a firm believer that the chain is one of the biggest factors. However I have learned that there is no replacement for displacement.
TonyM
ArboristSite Guru
Considering what most people (that I've had experience with) think a sharp chain looks like, I would say learn to keep the chain sharp first! If you are going to burn up a saw by running high rpm no load with a dull chain, why burn up a modified saw! I think your question is directed at the level of user who knows how to sharpen a chain, but I wanted to interject that many people have a lot more room on chain maintenance than they realize.
For the ease of sharpening, I'd rather do the work to the saw once than to the chain continuously, but that's my opinion for a work saw. I'd love to try some square ground race chain just to see what I'm missing, but I don't think it would be all the practical for cutting firewood.
My conclusion: A good strong running saw with a well maintained round ground (or filed) chisel chain.
For the ease of sharpening, I'd rather do the work to the saw once than to the chain continuously, but that's my opinion for a work saw. I'd love to try some square ground race chain just to see what I'm missing, but I don't think it would be all the practical for cutting firewood.
My conclusion: A good strong running saw with a well maintained round ground (or filed) chisel chain.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
TonyM,
The chain I use is square ground "work chain" I'd love to try a racing chain too. I've been using saws for over 20 years, so I know I have a lot to learn about sharpening (I used to think I knew it all, till I learned better). I figure when a guy knows it all about chain maintenance, someone will try something new and out cut him. :blob5:
The chain I use is square ground "work chain" I'd love to try a racing chain too. I've been using saws for over 20 years, so I know I have a lot to learn about sharpening (I used to think I knew it all, till I learned better). I figure when a guy knows it all about chain maintenance, someone will try something new and out cut him.
:blob5:Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tony says it pretty well. A modified saw will make more smoke with a dull chain than a stock saw will!
crash/banger
ArboristSite Operative
A good saw needs a sharp chain.................just like a man needs a good woman ......unless your a gaywad like Gypo(LOL)
TonyM
ArboristSite Guru
Unfortunately I didn't spend enough on my grinder to get one that would do square chisel. In the past I have always hand filed my chains, and If I'm in the woods and happen to dull a chain, it's nice to grab a file and fix it on the spot quickly. It just doesn't seem like the sqaure chisel would be so easy. I have toyed with the idea of learning the square chisel, but I'd probably start by buying some square ground to use for a reference, and then try some filing. I just think that the average user has a hard enough time keeping round ground chisel sharp, and they would get more benefit from that than going to square chisel. Some people I would recommend chipper chain to, as I know it is going in the dirt on the first cut!
If you look at productivity over a long term, seems like the gain in using square ground versus round ground would likely be more than offset by the extra time required to maintain the square ground chains. Looking at a few cuts in ideal conditions where you want to feel the saw slicing like a hot knife through butter, sure, I'd love the square ground.
If you look at productivity over a long term, seems like the gain in using square ground versus round ground would likely be more than offset by the extra time required to maintain the square ground chains. Looking at a few cuts in ideal conditions where you want to feel the saw slicing like a hot knife through butter, sure, I'd love the square ground.
crash/banger
ArboristSite Operative
Tony if you ever get the opportunity you should give square ground a try and if you find a deal or can justify the money buy a silvey............they are worth every penny......I cut everyday I keep six chains ground and ready to go........on a good week a chain will last the day but if not I just dig in my lunch box and pull out a spare......Wade
TonyM
ArboristSite Guru
Wade,
Someday I may get there. Right now I've got bigger fish to fry. I may just buy some chain and see how I like it, though.
Someday I may get there. Right now I've got bigger fish to fry. I may just buy some chain and see how I like it, though.
crash/banger
ArboristSite Operative
Out of the box square ground is okay........cuts better than stock round ground out of the box.....you need to find somebody local who grinds square ground or get one of us AS members to send you a loop to give it a try......you'll wanna make a few changes to stock cutters to really bring that chain to life.........just thinking outloud......later,Wade
Without sharp chain a higher HP motor is useless.....
Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
The square ground chain is a lot easier to pull through the wood than a round ground with the same raker clearance. If the saw has revving ability it will really unload into the wood with a good square filed chain. I think it would be worth while for a piece work cutter to run square chain and a modified saw. the time savings would pay it off. It really is no bs to say you can cut in 1/2 the time of an unmodded saw with the best round ground. I will try to put some video on in the next week with my modified 260 and 372 with square filed chain.
tony marks
Addicted to ArboristSite
the cut setup is the only thing im half way good at..while i prefer round filed for reg work.. thats probably due to the difference in my ability in the 2 areas..[square verses round]
a good stock saw with good cut setup is just gonna get the job done, fine..
a souped up saw with poor setup is just something to frustrate you an work your but off ..it just sounds better doing it..jmo
a good stock saw with good cut setup is just gonna get the job done, fine..
a souped up saw with poor setup is just something to frustrate you an work your but off ..it just sounds better doing it..jmo
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
TonyM,
You realy ought to try it. As far as sharpening, I can file a square chisel with a goofy file in about the time it takes to change a chain (unless it gets rocked). Bailey's has em for .22 per dl, pretty cheap experiment. Filing is easy, It's just backward to round filing. I don't think I could do justice to showing you how to file online, but I know there is a good sight somewhere, I saw it once. I'll try to find it for you.
You realy ought to try it. As far as sharpening, I can file a square chisel with a goofy file in about the time it takes to change a chain (unless it gets rocked). Bailey's has em for .22 per dl, pretty cheap experiment. Filing is easy, It's just backward to round filing. I don't think I could do justice to showing you how to file online, but I know there is a good sight somewhere, I saw it once. I'll try to find it for you.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
chainsawworld
ArboristSite Guru
a sharp chain is critical. what good is any saw that carries a chain that can't cut? a dull chain is not only hard on the saw but the operator as well. not to mention what it is doing to the bar. just think of the frustration that comes with it.
a good competition chain can take hours to get correct. rake,side plate,top plate,chisel angle and the back of the cutter.
a regular chain in the woods takes practice. you need to learn to sharpen equally with both hands.
if your chain is not sharp you might as well put it on backwards. marty
a good competition chain can take hours to get correct. rake,side plate,top plate,chisel angle and the back of the cutter.
a regular chain in the woods takes practice. you need to learn to sharpen equally with both hands.
if your chain is not sharp you might as well put it on backwards. marty
what's a goofy file ?
I saw that Madsen's had round files, and ... a square chisel triangular file, a square chisel double bevel file, and a square chisel goofy file. What's a goofy file look like?
http://www.madsens1.com/fileshrp.htm#files
Is is possible to tune up the edges on square ground cutters in the field? Also, what's "backward" mean ... you stroke opposite from round ground, e.g. from the outside in in the case of square ground?
I saw that Madsen's had round files, and ... a square chisel triangular file, a square chisel double bevel file, and a square chisel goofy file. What's a goofy file look like?
http://www.madsens1.com/fileshrp.htm#files
Is is possible to tune up the edges on square ground cutters in the field? Also, what's "backward" mean ... you stroke opposite from round ground, e.g. from the outside in in the case of square ground?
Molecule, a goofy file is like the double bevel except it has a rounded edge or side instead of a double bevel. IMO they are easier to learn to file with if you are not familiar with square filing.
Yes you can square file in the woods just as easily and quickly as you can round file. Everyone that I have been around files from the outside in, or backwards. Almost everyone has a different position or method to hold the saw in the woods.
John
Yes you can square file in the woods just as easily and quickly as you can round file. Everyone that I have been around files from the outside in, or backwards. Almost everyone has a different position or method to hold the saw in the woods.
John
Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cu in 12 inch birch with 372 and square filed chain.
I hate hypothetical BS questions.
My bet is the Chain is the weak link in any formula.
But the bottom line is if you can afford to think about a built saw.....you better be able to afford chain and/or know how to keep a chain sharp.
My bet is the Chain is the weak link in any formula.
But the bottom line is if you can afford to think about a built saw.....you better be able to afford chain and/or know how to keep a chain sharp.
