Chain type for hard, dense timbers ?

[tdi-rick]

I started to post an answer on another thread re chain gauge, and thought I might open it up for general discussion.

Common chain gauges sold here vary from NA.
Stihl are sold with 0.063" gauge here, and husky 0.058".
0.050" (what I have on my saw) is a bit of a bastard child in this country in the larger 3/8" bar sizes.

The reason given to me for this has to do with the hardness and density of our timber. It's claimed that 0.050" chain stretches too readily with the heat generated in the cut as a lot of our hardwoods (our most common timbers by far for firewood, fencing and flooring) range in density from about 670kg/m3 up to well over 1000kg/m3 green, seasoned around the 1200kg/m3 region. Compare this to Radiata pine (common introduced plantation timber here) at only around the 380-480kg/m3 region.
Even our native softwoods, like White Cyprus Pine (used a lot in inland regions as it's termite resistant) has a density of 590kg/m3.

Then we get into the hardness side of things.
A few common hardwood Janka hardness's in N.
Blackbutt 8.9, Grey Ironbark (commonly used structural timber and for firewood) is 16.3, Red Ironbark 12 (same usage as Red), Brushbox 9.1, River Red Gum 10.

Softwoods.
White Cyprus 6, Radiata 3.3, Douglass fir 2.3-3.

Combine the density with the hardness, how would this change your selection of chain regarding chain cutter style, kerf, gauge and chain speed for our common hardwoods ?
All of the pro's I know use a semi-chisel style cutter. I haven't met anyone who uses a full chisel (yet).

Thoughts ?

 

[abohac]

I started to post an answer on another thread re chain gauge, and thought I might open it up for general discussion.

Common chain gauges sold here vary from NA.
Stihl are sold with 0.063" gauge here, and husky 0.058".
0.050" (what I have on my saw) is a bit of a bastard child in this country in the larger 3/8" bar sizes.

The reason given to me for this has to do with the hardness and density of our timber. It's claimed that 0.050" chain stretches too readily with the heat generated in the cut as a lot of our hardwoods (our most common timbers by far for firewood, fencing and flooring) range in density from about 670kg/m3 up to well over 1000kg/m3 green, seasoned around the 1200kg/m3 region. Compare this to Radiata pine (common introduced plantation timber here) at only around the 380-480kg/m3 region.
Even our native softwoods, like White Cyprus Pine (used a lot in inland regions as it's termite resistant) has a density of 590kg/m3.

Then we get into the hardness side of things.
A few common hardwood Janka hardness's in N.
Blackbutt 8.9, Grey Ironbark (commonly used structural timber and for firewood) is 16.3, Red Ironbark 12 (same usage as Red), Brushbox 9.1, River Red Gum 10.

Softwoods.
White Cyprus 6, Radiata 3.3, Douglass fir 2.3-3.

Combine the density with the hardness, how would this change your selection of chain regarding chain cutter style, kerf, gauge and chain speed for our common hardwoods ?
All of the pro's I know use a semi-chisel style cutter. I haven't met anyone who uses a full chisel (yet).

Thoughts ?

Golly, you threw alot at me there. I have absolutely no idea of the density of our hardwoods here (that'almost all I cut). I have Husky's and J-Reds with .058. Have used .050. Can't tell the difference. Guess I'd go with what's readily available. I can get any gauge I want. Oh, also, the only chain I use is full chisel.

 

[husq2100]

i think the biggest factor is what you want to do....

for general cutting, clearing and firewood cutting, i would go with what is common to your saws and is local.

so if you are running Stihls you'd be set up for 0.063 gauge and if husky run 0.058.

then you have the different cutter types, ive spoken to cutters that use semi chisel and chipper chain, BUT these guys are looking for production in hard dirty wood, so they dont want to be filing all the time.

ive also been told by a racer in OZ that 3/8 is better for poplar and .325 in our hardwood, BUT i would like to know the specific brands and gauges. if the winning .325's are stihl chain they are probably 0.063 chassis. i wonder what the kerf is on a .325 0.063 and on a 3/8 0.058???

if you get another/more saws, then you will decide what determine you commonality, ie, local availability, what comes on your saw, or what makes you feel warm and fussy.

im leaning towards 3/8 0.050 for racing (when i finally give it a go) but for all round use as i run husky's ill just use 3/8 0.058 as thats my most common size.

at the end of the day, if you use your saw to enjoy it and all that goes with it, you may have no problem running sqaure ground chain, sure youll need to file alot more, but it will cut faster and youll get good satisfaction from it.

untill the majority of people here cut our hardwood, that has grown in our conditions, i think they just wont get how tough it is on gear. not just hard but dirty as well.

as i have said before, im a carpenter by trade and work regulary in pondesa pine, doug fir and our hardwoods..... there is just so much difference that its not funny.

Serg

 

[pgg]

There's no shortage of gums down here too, on thinning jobs they're generally a nightmare, hard as steel and always splitting and splintering with no give or take, give me nice bendy pine forests anyday, but for grate-melting firewood - dry aussie ironwood power-poles or railway sleepers, jesus they're a killer on any saw, huge old grunter chainsaws like a homelite wiz with big chain can cut that stuff, a modern screamer with a million mph chain gets blunt and screams in agony, it's plain painful, using semi-chizel makes no difference, both types get equally blunt in nanoseconds, even worse felling on a coastal block with plenty of sand where it gets to be really fun..

 

[husq2100]

it would be reaaly interesting to get samples of our hardwood, say ironbark, that was growen in different parts of the world. im talking exact same species, just different growing conditions.

i imagine there must be some beautifull timber in NZ, lots of rain and by the looks of your country side the soil must be fairly fertial.

Serg

 

[pgg]

They stopped full-time logging natives way back, but clear-felling we were doing then in the forestry, greenies today would cry in horror, but vegetation always comes back within weeks, lots of it is all bush again today, our mob were stuck with tail end stuff the crawler and truck didn't want, on our 80cc huskys, twisted widowmakers, hollow with bees nests, multi-leaders, back then only the perfect trees were carted to the mill, rimus, matais, miros, kahikateas and totaras the timber trees, some of the 'kaiks' 200 footers, tops swaying up in the clouds, if you zoom in on google earth you'll see plenty of rainforest, north island and south island

 

[tdi-rick]

Thanks fella's.

pgg, Serg and I have discussed this a few times now, and I'm glad someone else understands how bloody hard (and dirty) some of this timber is.
All the Aussies understand.

I think the newer style fast saws should be able to cut this stuff ok, if you can get the chain working for you.
I'm just going to have to experiment with a few different chains and angles to see what works for me.

 

[harrygrey382]

Thanks fella's.

pgg, Serg and I have discussed this a few times now, and I'm glad someone else understands how bloody hard (and dirty) some of this timber is.
All the Aussies understand.

I think the newer style fast saws should be able to cut this stuff ok, if you can get the chain working for you.
I'm just going to have to experiment with a few different chains and angles to see what works for me.

+1... And when they bring up silicite(silicate?) from the soil it just turns into a joke! Just about to head back out for a few months with an 056 in the baggage! I guess I'll be going for Stihl 3/8 full chisel.

BTW, unless I've misunderstood, the gauge makes no difference to the kerf and/or cutter body. It's ONLY the width of the drive links and you won't notice ANY differencein the cut. Basically, IMHO 050 and 058 are 100% useless for .325 and over. Can someone explain otherwise? It just adds more complication - why have a thinner drive link? Unless you're the chain/sprocket manufacturer and can sell for sprockets cos they wear faster...opcorn:

 

[husq2100]

+1... And when they bring up silicite(silicate?) from the soil it just turns into a joke! Just about to head back out for a few months with an 056 in the baggage! I guess I'll be going for Stihl 3/8 full chisel.

BTW, unless I've misunderstood, the gauge makes no difference to the kerf and/or cutter body. It's ONLY the width of the drive links and you won't notice ANY differencein the cut. Basically, IMHO 050 and 058 are 100% useless for .325 and over. Can someone explain otherwise? It just adds more complication - why have a thinner drive link? Unless you're the chain/sprocket manufacturer and can sell for sprockets cos they wear faster...opcorn:

well it seems that alot of the racers run 0.050 gauge, im guessing to reduce weight and drag, now if i was cutting doug fir or the like i would have no problem running 3/8 0.050 especially when running a long bar, speaking of which i have read that alot in Nth America run semi skip or full skip on 28inch or longer bars?

i wonder how skip performs in really hard wood, brings me back to the racers over here getting good results with .325??? alot more teeth per inch.

the difference between 0.058 and 0.063 is small enough in normal conditions that it doesnt matter, but as Rick said, 99% of sthil OEM stuff is 0.063 here and any 99% of husky is 0.058 so if thats what you buy then no need to change.....

there is no 1 perfect gauge, pitch or tooth type to do it all, race, fire wood, fell or production cut... it comes down to needs and wants. BUT the wood will also play a big factor in it.

just so you know when i say the racers here using .325 gauge, they are running 75cc saws and may be also on there 100cc saws.....


regarding kerf, is this not the width of the cut? if you have 2 chains both 3/8 pitch the cutters on each chain are the same profile but they have different thickness drive links(gauge) wouldn't the thicker drive link chain produce a wider kerf?

my thinking is that maybe .325 pitch in 0.063 gauge is a good tooth count to width(kerf) ratio for our hardwoods???? hope that makes sense

when i get out into the real word and speak with racers and cutters i will make more informed decisions based on what im seeing and hearing, but racers dont like to give much anyway......

Rick let me know what experiments your thinking of doing, ill donate some chain to you to help your costs.

Serg

 

[harrygrey382]

regarding kerf, is this not the width of the cut? if you have 2 chains both 3/8 pitch the cutters on each chain are the same profile but they have different thickness drive links(gauge) wouldn't the thicker drive link chain produce a wider kerf?

my thinking is that maybe .325 pitch in 0.063 gauge is a good tooth count to width(kerf) ratio for our hardwoods???? hope that makes sense

I think with racing a tiny bit of weight may come into play - but not cutting in the real world.
The drive link gauge is just that - it doesn't affect the kerf (width of cut). The cutters are the same, it's ONLY the drive link that's different. So the chain is (to me) imperceptably lighter

 

[gtstang462002]

I use whatever chains are on sale. I have the 290 and the 210 set up to run either the .325 x .063 and the 3/8 x .050 chains. I Bought a whole load of assortes loops off of ebay for cheap that I am working on. I like the veritility though. Havn't noticed a differance in one chain wearing faster than another though. I cut firewood primarily and am not picky on what I take.

 

[husq2100]

I think with racing a tiny bit of weight may come into play - but not cutting in the real world.
The drive link gauge is just that - it doesn't affect the kerf (width of cut). The cutters are the same, it's ONLY the drive link that's different. So the chain is (to me) imperceptably lighter

ok i must be seeing this wrong:

a chain has a left and right cutter, correct?
they are separated by the drive link, ie mounted on the outside of it, 1 left and 1 right, correct?

if the cutting tooth is the same for different gauge chains, then the 0.050 gauge will have a narrower kerf than a 0.063 chain????

what am i missing

Serg

 

[super3]

differance

it is only the width of the drive tang (the part that the sprocket engages)
050 wide,058 or063

 

[AUSSIE1]

Yeah, interesting topic Rick. I have noticed that in the States they are using longer bars than we could, even with skip chain. 36" bar on a 372!! Would be interesting to know the density of there hardwoods compared to ours.
Down here I'm cutting yellow and red box, red gum, stringy and pepperment, but we do have ironbark and grey box locally.
I have stuck with the 058 semi chisel as it gives me a good balance of things.
20" on the 371BB, 24" on the385port and 395.

With the difference between the three being only the "guide tang" then heat should not make any difference to stretch.

Al.

 

[husq2100]

it is only the width of the drive tang (the part that the sprocket engages)
050 wide,058 or063

yes i understand that gauge is the thickness of the drive tang, and the chain and bar have to match, the pitch of the chain has to match the bar tip,and the drive sprocket.

so what you are saying is that 3/8 in 0.063, 0.058 and 0.050 all have the same kerf(for the same brand and type),the drive link is the same thickness where the cutter meets it, but the lower part is machined to the 3 different gauges depending which one you have.????

Serg

 

[tdi-rick]

I'll measure some chain up (unless Oregon Engineer chimes in)
I have a few different gauge chains here on different saws but they are different brands and used, so I'll pop around to the two workshops in the village that do chain to measure some new ones early in the week.

 

[scotclayshooter]

The drivers are the same thickness between the links and its just the lower driving part of the driver that is machined down to .50 - .63

 

[pgg]

They must be scottish chains then

 

[super3]

yes i understand that gauge is the thickness of the drive tang, and the chain and bar have to match, the pitch of the chain has to match the bar tip,and the drive sprocket.

so what you are saying is that 3/8 in 0.063, 0.058 and 0.050 all have the same kerf(for the same brand and type),the drive link is the same thickness where the cutter meets it, but the lower part is machined to the 3 different gauges depending which one you have.????

Serg

yep

 

[teacherman]

There's no shortage of gums down here too, on thinning jobs they're generally a nightmare, hard as steel and always splitting and splintering with no give or take, give me nice bendy pine forests anyday, but for grate-melting firewood - dry aussie ironwood power-poles or railway sleepers, jesus they're a killer on any saw, huge old grunter chainsaws like a homelite wiz with big chain can cut that stuff, a modern screamer with a million mph chain gets blunt and screams in agony, it's plain painful, using semi-chizel makes no difference, both types get equally blunt in nanoseconds, even worse felling on a coastal block with plenty of sand where it gets to be really fun..

I wonder how these trees would compare to a Kansas hedgerow. Filled with thorny, super hard Osage Orange trees..... They will dull a chain pretty quickly.
Great firewood, though, for the cold days when hackberry just doesn't produce enough heat.