Cheap shenanigans

[Crftrapper535]

Alright folks let me start this off with I'm a LOGGER not a arborist but a LOGGER but here recently I was on the ole Amazon ordering some stuff and came across I guess what you would call a beginner tree monkeys set? Which was nothing but some spurs saddle /harness flipline and something else all for the price of 133$ and I got wondering in theory could one climb and remove trees with just that stuff if so any tips? (Pretty obvious what I'm hinting at) also I won't be using this 24/7 365 I'll just be using it for ***** n giggles since I got 3 trees that I kinda wanna play with thanks for any help or opinions.

 

[Howsitgoineh]

As a climber, I would personally be pretty weary of cheap climbing gear. I have a set of spurs from eBay, the spikes are actually welded on, as opposed to being bolted. Secondly I'm not sure a lot of the made in China stuff is adequately tested for the weight ratings. I'm not saying don't use this stuff, but be real careful.
Some inexpensive climbing saddles I have seen have plastic buckles on them. That scares the poop out of me

All you need to climb in spurs really is a saddle and a flip line. It is highly recommended that you also set a lifeline/climbing line so that you are always tied in 2 ways. There's plenty of resources on YouTube regarding spur climbing and how to safely tie in, and get started.

My advice would be to first practice up and down a bunch, then get comfortable with positioning yourself to work.. limb with a hand saw, then when you're really comfy in the tree, graduate to a chainsaw.

I hope this helps you some! Best wishes and safe climbing brother!

 

[Crftrapper535]

As a climber, I would personally be pretty weary of cheap climbing gear. I have a set of spurs from eBay, the spikes are actually welded on, as opposed to being bolted. Secondly I'm not sure a lot of the made in China stuff is adequately tested for the weight ratings. I'm not saying don't use this stuff, but be real careful.
Some inexpensive climbing saddles I have seen have plastic buckles on them. That scares the poop out of me

All you need to climb in spurs really is a saddle and a flip line. It is highly recommended that you also set a lifeline/climbing line so that you are always tied in 2 ways. There's plenty of resources on YouTube regarding spur climbing and how to safely tie in, and get started.

My advice would be to first practice up and down a bunch, then get comfortable with positioning yourself to work.. limb with a hand saw, then when you're really comfy in the tree, graduate to a chainsaw.

I hope this helps you some! Best wishes and safe climbing brother!

Thanks man I'm gonna try it the lifeline thing confuses the hell out of me and I kinda feel like the more ropes one has up there the more confusion? And I believe this Saddle has metal buckles and I plan on climbing telephone poles (not live I've got some standing) to test it before I tackle the other stuff

 

[Howsitgoineh]

Hydro/phone poles will be great practice for spurring up! Starting out you only have to go up a few steps to get the feel.
And personally I am more comfortable ascending the trees in spurs only, with a lanyard/flip line. Going up with my climbing line I find it cumbersome and a bit of a hassle to keep advancing my friction hitch as I go up every few steps..
So I usually climb up close to where I want to tie in, and then I set the line for work positioning & fall protection.
Lots of climbers do use spurs only a long with a strap or lanyard. You'll be just fine

 

[Crftrapper535]

Hydro/phone poles will be great practice for spurring up! Starting out you only have to go up a few steps to get the feel.
And personally I am more comfortable ascending the trees in spurs only, with a lanyard/flip line. Going up with my climbing line I find it cumbersome and a bit of a hassle to keep advancing my friction hitch as I go up every few steps..
So I usually climb up close to where I want to tie in, and then I set the line for work positioning & fall protection.
Lots of climbers do use spurs only a long with a strap or lanyard. You'll be just fine

How hard is it to descend with a flipline? Also another thing is I see alot of arborist using actual Kevlar pants like what guiltily of trees on uses but all I got is my chaps will they work in the tree? Or just not use them and asfar as saw wise I'm just taken a little Dewalt top handle saw with me

 

[Del_]

How's the fishing out your way?

 

[pdqdl]

Thanks man I'm gonna try it the lifeline thing confuses the hell out of me and I kinda feel like the more ropes one has up there the more confusion? And I believe this Saddle has metal buckles and I plan on climbing telephone poles (not live I've got some standing) to test it before I tackle the other stuff

Do NOT run a chainsaw in the tree without a lifeline. Your "lifeline" is actually nothing more complex than a really long lanyard. They both do the same thing and pretty much use the same hardware.

It isn't confusing to use two safeties. What is confusing is how folks think they can stay aloft while they unsnap their safety lanyard while going around a big branch. Telephone poles don't have branches, and you won't learn how to advance a lanyard up a busy tree by climbing a utility pole.

In the arborist world, we have a simple expression: T.I.T.S. "Tie In Twice, Stupid! That expression applies to any time you are running the saw, but having both methods of tying into the tree means that you should never be unsecured. Not even for a single moment.

 

[Crftrapper535]

How's the fishing out your way?

If ya asking me how's the fishing I really couldn't say I'm not much of a fisher

 

[Crftrapper535]

Do NOT run a chainsaw in the tree without a lifeline. Your "lifeline is actually nothing more complex than a really long lanyard. They both do the same thing and pretty much use the same hardware.

It isn't confusing to use two safeties. What is confusing is how folks think they can stay aloft while they unsnap their safety lanyard while going around a big branch.

In the arborist world, we have a simple expression: T.I.T.S. "Tie In Twice, Stupid! That expression applies to any time you are running the saw, but having both means of tying into the tree means that you should never be unsecured. Not even for a single moment.

Totally understand the don't run a chainsaw in the tree but as I said I've watched some arborist have atleast 100 ropes in one tree and it's like damn dude what are ya doin like it's crazy and as far as big branches all the trees I climb I'll cut the branches I'm not a huge fan of the whole pruning thing if I have to I will but eh I don't know and I seriously doubt a lifeline would help if say you cut a arm off or cut threw a thigh or kickback into your neck I've seen and heard some **** so safety is definitely a priority but at the same time for what I'm doing I feel pretty safe

 

[Howsitgoineh]

Going down is certainly a bit trickier than going up. It's the same process, but reversed. It takes some getting used to taking your weight off the lanyard and moving it downwards - at least this has been my experience.

Leg protection isn't required while climbing, but I've always got my chainsaw pants on at work.
I've climbed in jeans and in Dickies work pants before, but never in chaps. I would say go with what's most comfortable. That battery saw will work just fine, make sure to have a safe way to attach and secure to your saddle, and just be sure to use that chain brake!

 

[pdqdl]

Totally understand the don't run a chainsaw in the tree

Just one slip with a chainsaw, cutting just one rope and you are dead or crippled for life. Using the proper securities while doing tree work is worth the effort. There are Rules to that effect too.





This is the part that pretty much means "tied in twice". You cannot reposition the rope without a lanyard as the second tie-in. You cannot reposition the lanyard without having a rope to protect you from a fall.

In case you think you wouldn't fall while standing on spurs and hanging onto a branch while moving your lanyard, I can show you youtube videos of guys falling out of trees who thought they could. Their cries of anguish on the ground are sufficient to convince me that I don't wish to take any chances of thinking I'm ok to reposition without being tied in.

Now in case that isn't a convincing argument, let me relate some personal experience. I was hiring a guy for a day that I had trained (partly) to climb and trim. He was well suspended from a climbing line, but didn't TITS. Then, because he was improperly secured and poorly positioned, he made a one-handed cut (also against the rules) and slipped when the branches came crashing down. It knocked his feet loose, then he lost control of the one-handed saw and put a big gash in his knee. All because he didn't follow simple procedures that would have kept him from doing any injury to himself.

Don't be that guy. Or... Just keep us updated in the Arboricultural Injuries forum.

 

[pdqdl]

I seriously doubt a lifeline would help if say you cut a arm off or cut threw a thigh or kickback into your neck I've seen and heard some **** so safety is definitely a priority but at the same time for what I'm doing I feel pretty safe

Aren't you the guy that was asking us for advice, and have no experience with any climbing equipment?

I can nearly always lower myself out of a tree if I get a serious injury, and have only one functioning hand. That is what the properly trained climber should be prepared to do. I am ALWAYS rigged to come down out of the tree with a friction device. At all moments, in every tree, except when repositioning my climbing line. Realistically, sometimes there is too much stuff in the way, and you wouldn't make it all the way down without getting hung up on something.

Sometimes I even rig my climbing line so that the ground crew could safely lower me if I were unconscious.
Another example of a personal reason to be tied in twice: I got knocked off my perch in the tree one time while chunking down a tree. The large section I was cutting off couldn't be lowered by the groundies because I foolishly put the rope through too narrow a crotch, and it bound up, swinging back at me and knocking me out of the tree. So there I was, trapped by my climbing line and safety lanyard mixing it up with a 500lb log right underneath the leaning spar. It banged into me several times while I was squealing at the groundies to lower the log... But they couldn't!
I had a seriously sore arm that I wasn't sure wasn't broken, and I did break a couple of ribs. But I could still loosen my lanyard, pull it off the tree, and then came down on my friction hitch. I didn't even drop the saw, 'cause it was secured with a lanyard, too.

I did have to climb back up the tree and cut the trapped log loose, though. It sucked, and my ribs hurt.

 

[Crftrapper535]

Just one slip with a chainsaw, cutting just one rope and you are dead or crippled for life. Using the proper securities while doing tree work is worth the effort. There are Rules to that effect too.

View attachment 1177678

View attachment 1177679

This is the part that pretty much means "tied in twice". You cannot reposition the rope without a lanyard as the second tie-in. You cannot reposition the lanyard without having a rope to protect you from a fall.

In case you think you wouldn't fall while standing on spurs and hanging onto a branch while moving your lanyard, I can show you youtube videos of guys falling out of trees who thought they could. Their cries of anguish on the ground are sufficient to convince me that I don't wish to take any chances of thinking I'm ok to reposition without being tied in.

Now in case that isn't a convincing argument, let me relate some personal experience. I was hiring a guy for a day that I had trained (partly) to climb and trim. He was well suspended from a climbing line, but didn't TITS. Then, because he was improperly secured and poorly positioned, he made a one-handed cut (also against the rules) and slipped when the branches came crashing down. It knocked his feet loose, then he lost control of the one-handed saw and put a big gash in his knee. All because he didn't follow simple procedures that would have kept him from doing any injury to himself.

Don't be that guy. Or... Just keep us updated in the Arboricultural Injuries forum.

100 percent stupid question but think it would be smart carrying 2 fliplines? Keep one hooked then to reposition unhook one hook it back unhook the other and so on now as far as injuries yeah I've had them and yeah I've seen them the most recent injurie was pulled on some cable out of the skidder when my hand slipped and a piece of the cable was broke and having to slide your hand off a piece of steel wire isn't fun.... now when I worked for ashplundh we had a new guy start and he was doin good for about 3 weeks until the 4th week when he ran a 32 inch bar on the end of a stihl 661 across his hand and the hand fell down the tree landing by the other new guy....so I'm very aware of the risk I'm taking

 

[Crftrapper535]

Aren't you the guy that was asking us for advice, and have no experience with any climbing equipment?

I can nearly always lower myself out of a tree if I get a serious injury, and have only one functioning hand. That is what the properly trained climber should be prepared to do. I am ALWAYS rigged to come down out of the tree with a friction device. At all moments, in every tree, except when repositioning my climbing line. Realistically, sometimes there is too much stuff in the way, and you wouldn't make it all the way down without getting hung up on something.

Sometimes I even rig my climbing line so that the ground crew could safely lower me if I were unconscious.
Another example of a personal reason to be tied in twice: I got knocked off my perch in the tree one time while chunking down a tree. The large section I was cutting off couldn't be lowered by the groundies because I foolishly put the rope through too narrow a crotch, and it bound up, swinging back at me and knocking me out of the tree. So there I was, trapped by my climbing line and safety lanyard mixing it up with a 500lb log right underneath the leaning spar. It banged into me several times while I was squealing at the groundies to lower the log... But they couldn't!
I had a seriously sore arm that I wasn't sure wasn't broken, and I did break a couple of ribs. But I could still loosen my lanyard, pull it off the tree, and then came down on my friction hitch. I didn't even drop the saw, 'cause it was secured with a lanyard, too.

I did have to climb back up the tree and cut the trapped log loose, though. It sucked, and my ribs hurt.

Yes I am asking but I'm also saying with my experience that I don't know how well that would work when you have a 14 inch bar in you and as far as getting a 500lb log smacking you I hope everything was okay also I watched one of bucking billy Ray videos and he didn't have a lifeline what was up with that?

 

[telecasterfool]

Hello, Trapper, glad to hear from you. You are a logger, so you are familiar with working a dangerous job. You sincerely have my respect. However, you came to a forum of professionals and some have offered advice - which you asked for. From what I can see, you have excused all of it and are going to do what you originally intended to do - that's fine, don't hear this as overly aggressive. But if a non-logger asked your advice about felling some trees on his lot and you offered some well earned safety advice, which he quickly excused - what would you think?

 

[Crftrapper535]

Hello, Trapper, glad to hear from you. You are a logger, so you are familiar with working a dangerous job. You sincerely have my respect. However, you came to a forum of professionals and some have offered advice - which you asked for. From what I can see, you have excused all of it and are going to do what you originally intended to do - that's fine, don't hear this as overly aggressive. But if a non-logger asked your advice about felling some trees on his lot and you offered some well earned safety advice, which he quickly excused - what would you think?

Oh I ain't declining any info I'm taking it all in and thinking about it and yes I plan on doing what I intended to do but I'm gonna take with me the advice these guys have gave me and if a non logger asked me say how to fell a 40ft white oak on a 1500ft hillside in the wind my response would be seriously think about that for a second and maybe not necessarily do it but if he did wanna do it (like I wanna try a flipline and harness) I would say cut a Dutchman into it bore the heart don't cut in the wind if you do cut with it(I've tried it and it's surprisingly helpful) and then insert a wedge and hope that you don't die and another thing if these guys ever wanna know about trapping logging machinery etc I'll give info just like there Givin me and ps thanks for the respect we're all in the same trade so respect to you to

 

[telecasterfool]

Great. My only additional advice is that you can run a simple line choked around the tree with your flipline, and attached to your saddle with any of a dozen descending devices or knots. This gives you a way to the ground (even with one hand) in case of emergency. If you would like clarification, anybody here can help or point out a video. Good luck and be safe.

 

[pdqdl]

Yes I am asking but I'm also saying with my experience that I don't know how well that would work when you have a 14 inch bar in you and as far as getting a 500lb log smacking you I hope everything was okay also I watched one of bucking billy Ray videos and he didn't have a lifeline what was up with that?

Well... better to have a 14" bar stuck in you and come down on a rope than to make the surgeons fix all your broken bones in addition to suturing up your wounds.

I don't consider falling to my death an improvement over getting wounded by a saw or falling wood and then falling to my death. As far as that goes, proper training and equipment will prevent a lot of suspension injuries by folks who couldn't come down from the tree because of other foreseeable problems.

Example: a climber dies because he gets knocked out aloft, and the fire department gets there too late to get him down.
Had said climber been wearing a helmet, he might have only had a bad headache. There are very few injury scenarios in tree work that wouldn't probably have been prevented with a little bit of preparation and observance of the rules.

My example of getting knocked off my perch was a good example. I wasn't breaking any rules, but a bit more experience would have eliminated that particular risk. Please consider that you are starting at the bottom of the learning curve, and are taking on all the risks.

"bucking billy Ray" is a YouTube influencer who likes to make videos illustrating his high-risk, adventurous lifestyle. While I have no doubt that he is quite experienced, there is no reason to assume that what a person can do is what they should be doing. He wasn't selling training, he was selling video clicks. And promoting his merchandise and brand name. https://buckinbillyray.com/

 

[Crftrapper535]

Well... better to have a 14" bar stuck in you and come down on a rope than to make the surgeons fix all your broken bones in addition to suturing up your wounds.

I don't consider falling to my death an improvement over getting wounded by a saw or falling wood and then falling to my death. As far as that goes, proper training and equipment will prevent a lot of suspension injuries by folks who couldn't come down from the tree because of other foreseeable problems.

Example: a climber dies because he gets knocked out aloft, and the fire department gets there too late to get him down.
Had said climber been wearing a helmet, he might have only had a bad headache. There are very few injury scenarios in tree work that wouldn't probably have been prevented with a little bit of preparation and observance of the rules.

My example of getting knocked off my perch was a good example. I wasn't breaking any rules, but a bit more experience would have eliminated that particular risk. Please consider that you are starting at the bottom of the learning curve, and are taking on all the risks.

"bucking billy Ray" is a YouTube influencer who likes to make videos illustrating his high-risk, adventurous lifestyle. While I have no doubt that he is quite experienced, there is no reason to assume that what a person can do is what they should be doing. He wasn't selling training, he was selling video clicks. And promoting his merchandise and brand name. https://buckinbillyray.com/

So just overall say no lifeline or anything whats the chance of death and say with 100 different ropes that could get caught in the saw a chipper or tangle up what's the chance of death on that

 

[ZinTrees]

well, you will NEVER have 100 ropes in a tree

climbing with a single tie in is STUPID

T.I.T.S is a SUPER important rule, even more so as an inexperienced climber that will be more prone to gaffing out or not knowing where their bar tip is in relation to ropes



no amount of extra ropes in a tree adds any more danger if you engage even half your brain, ropes can tangle, but they shouldn't, with a half decent climber and ground crew, they won't be tangling or snagging, same goes for a rope going into a chipper, EVERY piece of brush should be inspected before going anywhere near a running chipper or a machine of any sort


I have fallen just rappelling out of a hackberry once, ***** not fun, my zigzag locked up somehow and wouldn't grab the rope, kicked off a limb at about 40ft, came down a little faster than normal and when I tried to slow down at about 20ft I had nothing besides the friction of my rope over a limb, so I won't ever make fun of someone being tied in twice even if they aren't cutting, equipment can and will fail, ropes can get cut, especially under tension, even without you touching a saw to them, the tree can fail, etc


I was working for a half price harry a few years ago, im up in the bucket rigging down a red maple, alternating ends of my rope, I send a branch down, tie the other end of the rope to the bucket as I am re-positioning the block, I felt the bucket shake a little and look down to see the limb being fed into the chipper, dumbass feeding the chipper assumed the other ground guy had untied the rope, thankfully one of the 2 other guys saw it and stopped the chipper, I came down out of the tree and yelled at the kid, showed him the "rope in chipper" video and basically told him if I ever saw it again id probably end up with some jail time for beating him to a pulp, he never did it again!



working on my own, or with a decent ground crew, never once have I been even remotely close to being pulled out of a tree, but that one moron almost ended it all right then and there

so, don't get rid of the thing holding you into the tree, get rid of the thing pulling you out of it! 2 tie ins minimum, often I will go up with 2 lanyards and a climb line depending on the tree and how my nerves are that day (I don't climb as much as I used to, maybe once or twice a month now so I get a little shaky sometimes)