Climber hurt

[treemandan]

Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.

Very well to point out the differences in the trees from here and there. I was going to convey that myself in my earlier message. I sort of did but not in detail like you.
I did my best to picture the scene in my mind and came up with pretty much the same thing but I added the fact that one is utimately to blame for his own misfortunes BUT yes, there is more to it.
For one, there are high power scopes which to use to see the TIP. I understand completely why they are not a mandate but if I was out there in those sticks I think I would have one.
Its true I only needed a scope to see my TIP once or twice in my life. We have it easy over here in comparison but I have to say I see all those rec people climbing them pretty good. As an arborist I have to wonder about the geefy smiles on their faces cause the thought of falling don't come easy to me.
Anyway, the point is that there is a way to climb safely and there isn't. If the guy is actually a climber then he probably knew he stood a chance of falling. Don't ya think? Hmmm? It would be different if he was a trainee. Don't ya think? Hmmm?
The reason I am so interested in this is obvious being a user of srt in the same manner. I went up some hairy stuff though I had to pull out and re-insert a few times.

 

[summit583guy]

Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.

You nailed it right, people from the east have no idea! Im from the east and can honestly say Srt ascent into firs/cedar/hemlocks up to 250ft can be extremely dangerous, especially cedars due to there branch formation. I worked with this climber at this company and am a friend of this climber. He is a extremely talented climber with lots of experience and formal training. An update of his condition- it's been a couple weeks since ive herd an update but last I herd through a mutual friend was that he is being moved to a rehab facility. He is out of his coma, will speak short sentences but is very forgetfull at times, No spinal injuries. He is in a positive state and on the right road to recovery.

 

[ropensaddle]

Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.

Hey feller I have lived most of my whole life west of the Mississippi:monkey: Wonder why your not criticizing, as it is your MO usually Anyway I agree conifers can be dangerous, but so can cottonwood and other poplars. The fact is; you really don't get to know enough until a minimum of five years active climbing and people are always equating speed with good which is not at all the case. I have 27 years aloft and the worst I have been injured thus far in a tree was four stitches which I readily accepted for being a bit stupid. Most climbers have a few close calls especially in the first five years after twenty they many times are not close they're fatal because they are doing the ones no one else will and with declining ability usually. Fatigue and production requirements are the biggest killer and most management do not want that truth exposed imo.


PS: I hope the climber has a full recovery btw.

 

[mr. holden wood]

Hey feller I have lived most of my whole life west of the Mississippi:monkey: Wonder why your not criticizing, as it is your MO usually Anyway I agree conifers can be dangerous, but so can cottonwood and other poplars. The fact is; you really don't get to know enough until a minimum of five years active climbing and people are always equating speed with good which is not at all the case. I have 27 years aloft and the worst I have been injured thus far in a tree was four stitches which I readily accepted for being a bit stupid. Most climbers have a few close calls especially in the first five years after twenty they many times are not close they're fatal because they are doing the ones no one else will and with declining ability usually. Fatigue and production requirements are the biggest killer and most management do not want that truth exposed imo.


PS: I hope the climber has a full recovery btw.

Rope ya old dog, nothing I say is gonna enlighten you. The fact that you even compared cottonwoods and poplars shows how naive you are. Both these trees have obvious distinct crotches, they may be weaker wood but at least you know exactly what your dealing with.
I know you have alot more experience in the trees then I, but in this aspect of treework you are absolutely clueless. I climb srt accent into Douglas firs on a daily basis. Today I pruned six of them, not one of them had a branch lower then seventy five feet. (Some hillbilly had raised the crown on all of them) Got my tip with the big shot and inspected it, then had the crew hang on it. Got a bad feeling half way up and used my flipline. When I reached my tip it was a branch about the size of my thumb, looked great from the ground though.
I don't know what the solution is ,but I assure you these accidents are going to become more prevalent. Nothing is worse then hearing of a accident involving a experienced climber taking all the precautions.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I can see the end of this thread.
Jeff

 

[mr. holden wood]

I can see the end of this thread.
Jeff

I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.

 

[ropensaddle]

Rope ya old dog, nothing I say is gonna enlighten you. The fact that you even compared cottonwoods and poplars shows how naive you are. Both these trees have obvious distinct crotches, they may be weaker wood but at least you know exactly what your dealing with.
I know you have alot more experience in the trees then I, but in this aspect of treework you are absolutely clueless. I climb srt accent into Douglas firs on a daily basis. Today I pruned six of them, not one of them had a branch lower then seventy five feet. (Some hillbilly had raised the crown on all of them) Got my tip with the big shot and inspected it, then had the crew hang on it. Got a bad feeling half way up and used my flipline. When I reached my tip it was a branch about the size of my thumb, looked great from the ground though.
I don't know what the solution is ,but I assure you these accidents are going to become more prevalent. Nothing is worse then hearing of a accident involving a experienced climber taking all the precautions.

I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.

 

[ropensaddle]

I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.

Oh yeah hillbillies don't over raise city boys do

 

[mr. holden wood]

I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.

I'm interested, how would you set up a bowline to srt off of.. There were no branches or stubs until seventy five feet . How would you install a tip in that situation?

 

[moss]

...but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?

It's pretty much impossible to cinch a bowline to the spar from the ground on a tall conifer/100+ foot SRT setting. Maybe if you had a trained squirrel.

I think it's the production/peer pressure that results in experienced climbers accepting less than optimal SRT settings.

Classic scene at the base of the tree:
Climber installs a rope over a high branch in a conifer, turns to other members of the crew/team, "Think that's good to climb on?" the guy who's not climbing says "Sure, looks good to me".

That's the pressure. It's easy for someone else to say "Oh ya I'd climb on it". Everything looks good enough to them from the ground. Takes a lot of discipline to stick to your guns and take the time to get a setting that you're totally confident of, even if everyone's twiddling their thumbs and yawning watching you get it right.

Making spurs only rules avoids dealing with improving team safety thinking and support.
-AJ

 

[beowulf343]

I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.

Hahahahahahaha. Best post of the year!!!

 

[jefflovstrom]

I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.

Feel better? Fool?
Jeff

 

[mr. holden wood]

Feel better? Fool?
Jeff

I try to make my post's matter, not make me feel better. This is one of the few important topics I have come across on this site. Half the crap you read on this site is either self indulgent or in no way related to tree work. Take a look at the last 20 posts of yours, they are either stupid icons or crap you should be talking about to some secretary. Don't feel embarrassed, there are hundreds of other worthless posts about snowplowing, should I wear a warm sweater in the winter and i have no experience should I start a business etc.
Bottom line is I may talk crap here and there but I try to add humor and keep it tree related. I wish others would do the same, especially with a important topic like this.

 

[ropensaddle]

I'm interested, how would you set up a bowline to srt off of.. There were no branches or stubs until seventy five feet . How would you install a tip in that situation?

If I had one worry my tip would , could fail , I would tie the spar off with running bowline.

It's pretty much impossible to cinch a bowline to the spar from the ground on a tall conifer/100+ foot SRT setting. Maybe if you had a trained squirrel.

I think it's the production/peer pressure that results in experienced climbers accepting less than optimal SRT settings.

Classic scene at the base of the tree:
Climber installs a rope over a high branch in a conifer, turns to other members of the crew/team, "Think that's good to climb on?" the guy who's not climbing says "Sure, looks good to me".

That's the pressure. It's easy for someone else to say "Oh ya I'd climb on it". Everything looks good enough to them from the ground. Takes a lot of discipline to stick to your guns and take the time to get a setting that you're totally confident of, even if everyone's twiddling their thumbs and yawning watching you get it right.

Making spurs only rules avoids dealing with improving team safety thinking and support.
-AJ

I had already said production requirements and have also told so many times everyone, speed is not to be equated with good. I learned a long time ago, speed will get you killed,will get you dead,will get you dead. Why when someone posts a difficult removal the first thing some five year climber wants to chime in saying, I would have done it in five hours for is beyond me. I can do and have done all my life the things every young whippersnapper needs or routinely uses a crane on now. I, at the end of the day, know I am going home because I work at a pace which suits the needs on the task. I would ask why is it impossible to cinch a bowline from ground I have done it to winch trees countless times! Sure you may have to shoot a couple angles and take a little more TIME but just before someone hits the ground I strongly doubt they are worrying over how fast they did the job! To really get to the nuts on safety someone needs to rough up management as many of these guys, though should be aging climbers are instead schooled cost cutters and bean counters. Yeah, I just said that and it is my opinion that; supervisory positions in tree companies should be filled by aging climbers but how many times do we see the polar opposite? I have actually seen some of these bean counters try to call the shots in the trench and many times making a simple task downright dangerous. The problem imo starts with the standard of supervision being focused on the dollar more than safe operations. It is a direct correlation seen in the need for speed by every aspiring young climber out there. While I may not be the fastest anymore I have one distinct quality over my competition. I know I am going home each night intact. I know through long years of experience and study with careful climbing practices.

 

[ropensaddle]

Ode to Jeffy;

Though we all pick and prod
Though we poke and nod
He is one of the few
He is an aged climber like you.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Ode to Jeffy;

Though we all pick and prod
Though we poke and nod
He is one of the few
He is an aged climber like you.

 

[moss]

I would ask why is it impossible to cinch a bowline from ground I have done it to winch trees countless times! Sure you may have to shoot a couple angles and take a little more TIME

Apologies, I should've been more clear: for tall forest conifers you could spend all day trying to cinch the spar and still not get it. Too many obstructions, small branches etc. up there in the way. A climber can make the effort to get the line over several limbs and do a safe ascent, obviously the guy that was hurt depended on one limb only.
-AJ

 

[ropensaddle]

Apologies, I should've been more clear: for tall forest conifers you could spend all day trying to cinch the spar and still not get it. Too many obstructions, small branches etc. up there in the way. A climber can make the effort to get the line over several limbs and do a safe ascent, obviously the guy that was hurt depended on one limb only.
-AJ

I am a great cincher who has learned to mitigate tall obstructions but to be honest even it it cinched up partially it would have been better than this out come. Remember if the limb snaps gravity would tighten the loop. If he only was relying on one limb, my guess is it was the first so likely the obstruction clause would not be plausible ehh? The bottom line is, something was done improper, likely trying to meet expectations placed on management production requirements. Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.

 

[ropensaddle]

I am a great cincher who has learned to mitigate tall obstructions but to be honest even it it cinched up partially it would have been better than this out come. Remember if the limb snaps gravity would tighten the loop. If he only was relying on one limb, my guess is it was the first so likely the obstruction clause would not be plausible ehh? The bottom line is, something was done improper, likely trying to meet expectations placed on management production requirements. Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.

Is this a conifer?

 

[tree md]

I try to make my post's matter, not make me feel better. This is one of the few important topics I have come across on this site. Half the crap you read on this site is either self indulgent or in no way related to tree work. Take a look at the last 20 posts of yours, they are either stupid icons or crap you should be talking about to some secretary. Don't feel embarrassed, there are hundreds of other worthless posts about snowplowing, should I wear a warm sweater in the winter and i have no experience should I start a business etc.
Bottom line is I may talk crap here and there but I try to add humor and keep it tree related. I wish others would do the same, especially with a important topic like this.

You have no sense of humor and zero personality. Every now and then you share a good piece of info pertaining to climbing. You are the perfect work drone. I bet your boss loves you. I love hiring guys like you, all business and no screwing off. All you have to do is reinforce their self importance and stroke their egos a little bit. Kudos to you.

Very sorry to hear of this man getting hurt. Gives me pause and reminds me to be very careful about setting remote tie ins. Hope he make a full recovery.