closed/open center hydralics

[keving]

I just bought a log splitter that was previously run on an old allis chalmers tractor.Ive now been using a 4030JD tractor and I would like to get more psi out of the cylinder.it has a 'energy' brand one spool hyd.valve for fwd /return and I dont see any adjustment on the valve,does anyone know if open/closed center hydraulics have much to do with it?

 

[cuznguido]

Ya might want to check your tractor out and see what kind of psi it makes, as well as the flow (gpm) before you get too far along with other stuff. Service manual should have it all and if you don't have one you can find it online. Might surprise you just how little flow etc. some of those tractors produce.

 

[swyman]

Open center means that when you release the lever on your directional valve the pressure coming in just goes back to tank with little or no resistance. Closed center means that all ports on valve are blocked and it dead heads the sytem and pressure goes back to tank through the relief valve at whatever psi your system is set. This adds a lot of heat to the oil and pump is always working hard when not doing anything.

 

[Steve NW WI]

4030 has plenty of hydraulics for the job, I think +-20gpm. Pressure should be 2500PSI+ if the pump is in good shape. Those non-turbo JD sixes are kind of hard on fuel for the job, but I suspect you're aware of that already.

Dealing with the closed center problem will cost a bit of money. You can either change the splitter to a closed center valve, or add a power beyond port to the tractor, which will just dump the oil that is bypassing the open center valve back into the transmission without building pressure (and heat, which is the enemy of hydraulics). This would be a better option if you want to use the splitter with an open center tractor again in the future. Power beyond also comes in handy for running hydraulic motors, etc. Should be able to find a used one in a tractor salvage yard pretty easy.

 

[Outlander]

:agree2:

I used to split with my homemade splitter and a 1066 IH. Worked great but I didn't like having to run a tractor to split wood. When I started using a 4040 JD I switched the valve but it still heated the oil really fast and I could tell the tractor was under load. I added a Power Beyond port and that solved the hydraulic problem. Then I sold my homemade splitter and bought a Swisher splitter and have been happy with it.

 

[fubar2]

My guess is that there is some incompatability issues going on with yours and allis hydraulics. Old Allis tractors had a high pressure low volume system on them and if it worked good on the allis I would say its in the cylinder. My old Allis will blow the seals right out of an International cylinder. This I know for a fact.

 

[keving]

the 4030 JD has about 13000 hrs on it and is not worth much,so the extra hrs dont bother me but I can tell when I run the splitter that the hyd. are making a''labor'' type noise when not using the cylinder.if I make the splitter a self contained unit how many hp engine/gal per min pump would you recommend for a 4in cyl. with a 2in shaft and a 2ft stroke?

 

[MH49]

I am not a Deere guy but if I remember right, you can not run an open center valve with the closed center tractor system. This is an anomaly with the Deere system in that it uses a charge pump to feed that monster radial piston pump that is on the front of the engine. To make a long story short, the charge pump is not big enough to keep the main pump full of oil and it will burn the pump up if you run it too long. The fix would be to either change your splitter valve over to closed center or just run the splitter of the remotes.

 

[tanker]

I run an open center valve on the loader on my 2510 J D through the remote valve with the valve locked open.In the manual for my loader,J D 48,that is how they say to do it,but you are supposed to only lock the valve open 1 way.On mine,it is toward the operator,on your 4030,should be towards the back. Scott

 

[HARRY BARKER]

buy a PTO pump....you could get 3000 outta that instead of the 2500 the tractor puts out.

 

[wkpoor]

The PTO pump is the right solution but those pumps are only rated to 2500. However that is how I do it and I set my pressure relief back to 2000psi and don't have an issue with a 4" cylinder at all. Most wood easily splits at only 200-500psi and since its only a single stage you aren't pausing to shuttle to more pressure less flow, its instaneous full flow at 2000 and sometimes that will do more than the 3000 at a real slow speed. My 3pt unit has the Speeco unit on it and it seems more powerfull than the stand alone 22 ton unit even though I'm at 500-700lbs less pressure. I figure its the speed and smooth even hard push that opens up the tough ones.

 

[Steve NW WI]

the 4030 JD has about 13000 hrs on it and is not worth much,so the extra hrs dont bother me but I can tell when I run the splitter that the hyd. are making a''labor'' type noise when not using the cylinder.if I make the splitter a self contained unit how many hp engine/gal per min pump would you recommend for a 4in cyl. with a 2in shaft and a 2ft stroke?

Here's a Prince pump, 22GPM should get plenty of speed with a 4" cylinder, but 2250 PSI will give only 14 tons of pressure.

http://stores.daltonhydraulic.com/-strse-253/Prince-PTO-Hydraulic-Pump/Detail.bok

A quick search didn't find much in 3000psi PTO pumps, but the pump on my splitter is driven by a PTO shaft, you could adapt about any pump this way.

I still think the power beyond port is your best bet. Here's a link to what you're looking for at Worthington Ag parts, have to call them for a price, though.

http://www.worthingtonagparts.com/L... Deere&cboCategory=T06&txtModel=4030&KeyWord=

 

[wkpoor]

The problem with power beyond is to get any decent flow you have to run the tractor at or near PTO RPM. The PTO pump will allow slower engine rpms with great full cycle times. I've been using my unit for 5yrs now and I don't care what the numbers say 90hp on a PTO pump will blow away a stand alone unit. If he has a 1000rpm pto option then he has it made. Get the 40gpm unit which is exactly the same as the 22 just has a different spline and then he can idle the tractor. People forget that when the 2 stage pumps shuttle your only about 1 gpm. Compare 1 gpm @ 3000 against 22gpm@ 2000 and its easy to see where the most work is being done.

 

[tanker]

just buy a log splitter valve that is `open center,plug into your remotes on the tractor,tie the remote lever open(a 4030 should already have the latch on the remote lever to hold it open) and you should be set to go..where you plug into your remote outlets on the back of the 4030 should have a speed control on the body of the hookup. should'nt hit you for more than 100.00$. Scott

 

[Haywire Haywood]

What I found out through an email contact with Speeco's engineers a few months ago, is that there are 2 ratings on hydraulic pumps. The Barnes pumps that are popular on stand alone splitters are rated at 3000psi constant, 4000psi intermittent. For splitter purposes, they say you can use the intermittent rating.

If that holds true for the 2500psi PTO pumps, the intermittent rating for them may be higher. Contact the manufacturer and see if they have an intermittent rating.

Ian

 

[wkpoor]

What I found out through an email contact with Speeco's engineers a few months ago, is that there are 2 ratings on hydraulic pumps. The Barnes pumps that are popular on stand alone splitters are rated at 3000psi constant, 4000psi intermittent. For splitter purposes, they say you can use the intermittent rating.

If that holds true for the 2500psi PTO pumps, the intermittent rating for them may be higher. Contact the manufacturer and see if they have an intermittent rating.

Ian

Another thing Ian (as I too contacted Speeco in the past) is the pump ratings are not the actual output in the application especially the gpm part. Just cause a pump is 11 or 16 gpm doesn't mean its delivering that amount in their units and I would bet the pressure spec is the same if you had a gauge hooked in to see. I have a gauge on my unit, thats how I set pressure initially. Just to eliminate undo stress I lowered it a little. Rarely do I see over 500lbs unless I hit something that wants to stop the ram.
I never really thought about it before but the potential for work to be done when you are maintaining full flow AND pressure may be why the PTO works so well even with far less peak pressure available.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Yep, having a 30+hp diesel running a single stage pump has clear advantages over a lawnmower engine running a 2 stage.

Ian

 

[keving]

update on open/closed center hyd problem(sort-of)

back in the middle of december i asked about hyd issue i was having with a 3-point splitter that i just got .I contacted Energy Manufacturing(the name on the valve) and they sent me a new barrel for the valve for 13.00 dollars.It has made a night and day differance.Ive split for two days straight and have not found a piece of wood that will stop this splitter.......I now see a leaking pump In the front of the tractor is this just coincidence or Is the splitter causing it ?the oil doesnt get hot and the tractor doesnt labor the tractor does have high hours so Im hoping maybee this is just coincidence....

 

[Steve NW WI]

Good to hear the splitter's working. I saw your post on this on AgTalk as well. I agree with the guys there, you've gotten your money's worth out of that pump, and it's just plumb wore out. I've got a friend with a fleet of Deeres, and pump replacement is a fairly common repair over there. I'd say they usually don't last half as long as yours has.