nathon918
Addicted to ArboristSite
neither...masonry chimney/fireplace
Damper or No Damper
- Thread starter DFK
- Start date
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NSMaple1
Addicted to ArboristSite
When someone says your a modern stove needs a barometric damper to adjust draft, and then says your modern stove can't use a flue damper... well... that's just silly. If a barometric damper can be used, a flue damper can be used in it's place... plain and simple. A flue damper, used correctly, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses.
That's not quite right. A barometric damper is used most times to automatically maintain a constant draft. A key/pipe damper is restricting draft all of the time, unless it is set wide open. My baro is closed 90% of the time, but when the wind blows it opens & prevents overdraft. Set it & forget it.
That's not quite right. A barometric damper is used most times to automatically maintain a constant draft. A key/pipe damper is restricting draft all of the time, unless it is set wide open. My baro is closed 90% of the time, but when the wind blows it opens & prevents overdraft. Set it & forget it.
I said a flue damper can be used in place of a barometric damper... I didn't say it was automatic.
I also said, "The performance of any stove may be improved with a flue damper"... I didn't guarantee it would improve every setup... I even finished that with, "but you'll never know if ya' don't try it." I understand the "set it & forget it" thing... I'm all about that... but unless the rest of your setup is "set 'n' forget" you ain't gained sour owl crap in that department. My bet is the air adjustments you make far outnumber any you'd make to the flue damper... especially since you say the baro don't do anything 90% of the time.
So you're sayin' a flue damper couldn't be used on windy days with your setup?? And, just because your baro is closed 90% of the time in no way means mine would be. For you to say, "That's not quite right" based on just one setup (yours) is not an objective statement... it's a subjective statement. I just gotta' ask... if you haven't tried a flue damper with your current setup, how can you possibly know it wouldn't improve the overall performance verses the baro?? Seriously... how can you possibly know??
I didn't make any statement of "absoluteness"... but yours is. That's something that happens quite often on this board... such as the statements that that (all) modern stoves don't need, or will see no added benefit from a flue damper. The "half the wood, twice the heat" thing is another one. The list goes on and on... Unfortunately too many are just regurgitation of the propaganda... or simply subjectively based in the need, or desire to believe in the magic. It really is a disservice to anyone comin' here lookin' for information... there ain't no right way/wrong way... there ain't no across-the-board absolutes... there ain't no one "size fits all"... and there sure-as-hell ain't no friggin' magic.
A flue damper gives you instantaneous, variable control of the draft... for just one example, if you want higher draft to get a fire started quickly, you open the damper for a couple minutes. Are there drawbacks?? Sure there are... just as there are drawbacks to a baro. Personally, the drawbacks of a baro introducing cooler air into the flue and sucking more air from the room (even 10% of the time) is not something I'm comfortable with. And to use your justification... 90% of the time my flue damper isn't touched.
If a barometric damper is what you like, then that's what you should have... it's your setup.
If a baro works a certain way with your setup, that great... but that's your setup.
None of that negates anything I've posted... which is, "a flue damper can be used in place of a barometric damper" and "The performance of any stove may be improved with a flue damper" and "A flue damper, used correctly, actually does a better job than a barometric damper because it keeps more heat in the box and doesn't cool the flue gasses."
What part of those statements are "not quite right"??
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Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
For a fireplace put a damper up top - it is activated by a chain that runs down inside the flue and comes out the bottom inside the fireplace. If you put an insert in then you can just leave it open or remove it up top. That way there is no structure in the top of the firebox to interfere with installing an insert.
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Mine is open 90% of the time...
nathon918
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't have one...
Boils down to:
Masonry fireplace - yes you need a flue damper to close off the chimney when you don't have a fire going.
Insert - no, you don't need a flue damper that goes in the stove pipe. Of course with an insert installation that closes off the entire opening you would have a hard time operating one installed in the exhaust pipe anyhow.
Hawrry K
Masonry fireplace - yes you need a flue damper to close off the chimney when you don't have a fire going.
Insert - no, you don't need a flue damper that goes in the stove pipe. Of course with an insert installation that closes off the entire opening you would have a hard time operating one installed in the exhaust pipe anyhow.
Hawrry K
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Let's review, an open masonry fireplace needs a flue damper. If one is not installed right from the get go, then a top mounted one can be put on the chimney top with a cable or chain down through the flue so you can open and close it from inside the house.
If you are putting an insert in, you won't be able to use a barometric damper, those require an exposed stove pipe to install.
Depending on the height of your chimney, and which stove/insert you would install, you may want to put in a key damper whether you "need" it or not. If your chimney is over 20' tall, I would definitely want one, draft can (and does) increase greatly when the temp drops. When it gets real cold out, my lil stove in the fireplace was almost uncontrollable before I partially blocked off some of the "EPA" intake holes, and my chimney is only a bit less then 20' tall. I will be opening the intake holes back up and installing a key damper as soon as I "get the time"
A key damper can still be installed even with a insert style stove, you just need to fabricate some kind of extension handle to operate the damper.
If you are putting an insert in, you won't be able to use a barometric damper, those require an exposed stove pipe to install.
Depending on the height of your chimney, and which stove/insert you would install, you may want to put in a key damper whether you "need" it or not. If your chimney is over 20' tall, I would definitely want one, draft can (and does) increase greatly when the temp drops. When it gets real cold out, my lil stove in the fireplace was almost uncontrollable before I partially blocked off some of the "EPA" intake holes, and my chimney is only a bit less then 20' tall. I will be opening the intake holes back up and installing a key damper as soon as I "get the time"
A key damper can still be installed even with a insert style stove, you just need to fabricate some kind of extension handle to operate the damper.
Oxford
ArboristSite Operative
Actually, Whitespider, O Sage of the Cedar, you really are not quite right. In the case of a stove that is designed to have its heat output controlled by combustion air intake, the burn rate is absolutely dependent on draft, since it is the negative pressure of the draft that introduces oxygen into the combustion chamber. As you open or close the combustion air dampers, in order to correspondingly, and at least nominally predictably, increase airflow, the draft has to stay constant. If you were to open the air intake but close the flue damper all the way, the heat output of the stove would not increase, because there's no negative pressure to induce draft (oxygen flow) into the fire. That's not how the stove is designed to run, and that's certainly not the manufacturer's intent when they specify a barometric damper, which you know good and well. They don't want to use a damper to vary draft, they want to use it to keep draft constant, which is almost the exact opposite of what you want to do. I do not own an EPA stove, but my understanding is that secondary combustion is almost completely dependent on proper draft, which in the case of someone who insisted on controlling his draft by the seat of his pants- pardon me, I should have said "using common sense, the way the Framers of the Constitution and the voices in his head intended"- would almost certainly lead to results that were atypical of those achieved by people who actually installed and operated their stoves according to the manufacturer's instructions.
As to your oft-repeated bleating about using a barometric damper's introducing cold air into the space, that's a red herring. You're either going to operate the stove with the right draft or you're not. If you want it to operate properly, you'll give it the right draft. If you don't, don't, but at that moment you give up the right to complain that it doesn't operate correctly. Having the right draft has a whole host of good effects on any burner, including maintaining stable stack gas velocity, ensuring good mixing of fuel gas and air, and maintaining safe stack temperatures. Finally, in our society, if barometric dampers caused chimney fires, you wouldn't be able to buy one at any price.
Cue bloviating pseudoscientific twaddle in 10, 9, 8......
I don't believe I've suggested using the key damper is such a way... but suppose an idiot might.
Lets review...
The problem with a flue damper is you might screw it up and smolder the fire (causing evil particulates to be emitted)...
You don't own a EPA certified stove... but ya' still believe in the magic, don't ya??
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Up-Date
We are going to get a Flue Damper installed in our new Full Masonry Fireplace and Chimney.
The door of the damper will be removed when the insert is installed.
If , and that is just an if, we ever remove the insert the damper door can be re-installed then.
Our brick man has been building Chimneys for 50 years.
He has never built one seen a chimney with a round flue tile in it.
The brick and tiles were purchesed from the largest supplier here in North Alabama.
The supplier told him this is the first time they have ever ordered round flue tiles.
I requested round tiles.
Question: What is a Key Damper????
I am quite sure I know what Sour Owl Crap is.
Thanks
David
We are going to get a Flue Damper installed in our new Full Masonry Fireplace and Chimney.
The door of the damper will be removed when the insert is installed.
If , and that is just an if, we ever remove the insert the damper door can be re-installed then.
Our brick man has been building Chimneys for 50 years.
He has never built one seen a chimney with a round flue tile in it.
The brick and tiles were purchesed from the largest supplier here in North Alabama.
The supplier told him this is the first time they have ever ordered round flue tiles.
I requested round tiles.
Question: What is a Key Damper????
I am quite sure I know what Sour Owl Crap is.
Thanks
David
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Dunno what size you are going with, but I'd make sure it is big enough to get a stainless steel liner down it once you go to an insert. A flue big enough to work well with a fireplace will be too big to work correctly with most modern stoves, a liner solves that problem. Also, if most of the chimney is external to the house, a insulated SS liner will improve draft immensely!
The flue tiles are 12" in diameter.
And the chimney is on an outside wall.
We plan to pull a SS liner up to the top of the chimney.
I might.... Just for the fun of it build a "Fireplace" fire before the new insert is installed.
David
And the chimney is on an outside wall.
We plan to pull a SS liner up to the top of the chimney.
I might.... Just for the fun of it build a "Fireplace" fire before the new insert is installed.
David
And some sorta rube Goldberg device to operate it seeing as how it is sealed up and out of reach behind the insert facing.And then you'll need a key damper
Sorry... couldn't help myself.
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Harry K
iffin he was a awake fireplace maker,,he should have done the research long ago, that says that round tile liners,,FLOW, and square ones RESIST flow...corners....Up-Date
We are going to get a Flue Damper installed in our new Full Masonry Fireplace and Chimney.
The door of the damper will be removed when the insert is installed.
If , and that is just an if, we ever remove the insert the damper door can be re-installed then.
Our brick man has been building Chimneys for 50 years.
He has never built one seen a chimney with a round flue tile in it.
The brick and tiles were purchesed from the largest supplier here in North Alabama.
The supplier told him this is the first time they have ever ordered round flue tiles.
I requested round tiles.
Question: What is a Key Damper????
I am quite sure I know what Sour Owl Crap is.
Thanks
David
Not necessarily.
You can use the same hole the fireplace damper rod uses... a simple extension from the insert key damper and out the hole.
KISS principle.
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Olyman:
Remember now this is Alabama.... It does not get all that cold down here so just maybe that is why no one has ever heard of round flue tiles...... I dont know. Was talking to another man that does home remodeling for a living. He said that he has torn down lots of old chimnies over the years and has never seen a round flue tile....
Spiderman:
I think the KEY damper in the SS liner will be operated as you have stated above.
It is just going to have to look nice so the wife wont complain.
The old fireplace damper was operaded by a handle up in the top of the firebox.
David
Remember now this is Alabama.... It does not get all that cold down here so just maybe that is why no one has ever heard of round flue tiles...... I dont know. Was talking to another man that does home remodeling for a living. He said that he has torn down lots of old chimnies over the years and has never seen a round flue tile....
Spiderman:
I think the KEY damper in the SS liner will be operated as you have stated above.
It is just going to have to look nice so the wife wont complain.
The old fireplace damper was operaded by a handle up in the top of the firebox.
David
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