Dealer told me that my muffler mod was worthless

[2000ssm6]

Are you talking?

Are you listening?

 

[AOD]

Awww, it's so nice to see spacemule and 2K having a little friendly dialog.

Why doesn't Husky make DP mufflers for their bigger saws? Do they not care about optimum performance?

 

[Hddnis]

In truth modding the muffler did void the warranty and many STIHL dealers or Husky, Echo dealers etc simply will not work on modded saws, it is often posted in their shops. It can be a liability since it is against everything that STIHL and many reputable dealers are about. Technically a GOLD certified STIHL technician is not supposed to touch anything on a modded STIHL saw. When you modded the muffler you legally became a "manufacturer" since you altered the saw. If someone were to use your saw and something malfunctioned and harmed or killed someone then legally you are the "manufacturer" and the main defendant in a law suit. STIHL is not accountable at all since you became the "manufacturer" of the saw by altering it. If the STIHL technician touched your saw and became legally liable then they and possibly STIHL would be accountable for an accident. Even putting a non-STIHL wheel on a TS400 makes someone the "manufacturer" or putting a non-STIHL blade on a brushcutter makes someone the "manufacturer" and legally responsible for the product. Around this area if someone mods a piece of portable power equipment then pretty much they have just become their own service department. Sure the guy should have had a better attitude about everything, but if something should happen somewhere down the line a lawsuit could put the entire dealership out of business. Often times we hear about a dealer somewhere that does anything with no questions asked and then one day the doors are closed and everyone asks "What happened?" Many times the answer is that they assumed some liability and someone took them to the cleaners or that they did something contrary to their suppliers wishes, had their franchise pulled, and were forced to shut down. STIHL should have their legal liability procedures posted on the interent somewhere if you want to check it out.

I don't know where you got this information but it is NOT true.


Mr. HE

 

[Adam in VA]

I don't know where you got this information but it is NOT true.


Mr. HE

It's in the STIHL liability procedures manual as far as I know and I was told this in person by a STIHL technical rep. It is absolutely true........ Striaght from the Virginia Beach STIHL facility to my own ears about a month ago. STIHL saws are not supposed to be modified, altered, or adjusted to perform beyond spec (within reason) by any STIHL certified technician. At least that is the way Mid-Atlantic STIHL does it. I don't know about what other STIHL distribution networks say, but Mid-Atlantic STIHL covers their North American headquaters and the things I mentioned earlier are what their policy is.

 

[whitedogone]

It's in the STIHL liability procedures manual as far as I know and I was told this in person by a STIHL technical rep. It is absolutely true........ Striaght from the Virginia Beach STIHL facility to my own ears about a month ago. STIHL saws are not supposed to be modified, altered, or adjusted to perform beyond spec (within reason) by any STIHL certified technician. At least that is the way Mid-Atlantic STIHL does it. I don't know about what other STIHL distribution networks say, but Mid-Atlantic STIHL covers their North American headquaters and the things I mentioned earlier are what their policy is.

So if I put a Stihl DP cover on AND remove the limit caps to retune I am not covered in any way. WDO

 

[Hddnis]

It's in the STIHL liability procedures manual as far as I know and I was told this in person by a STIHL technical rep. It is absolutely true........ Striaght from the Virginia Beach STIHL facility to my own ears about a month ago. STIHL saws are not supposed to be modified, altered, or adjusted to perform beyond spec (within reason) by any STIHL certified technician. At least that is the way Mid-Atlantic STIHL does it. I don't know about what other STIHL distribution networks say, but Mid-Atlantic STIHL covers their North American headquaters and the things I mentioned earlier are what their policy is.

I can't speak to what you heard from a technician about what he read in a manual. I'm curious if you have yourself ever read this policy?

The fact of the matter is that what a customer does to a saw will not automatically void a warranty or exempt Stihl from liability for their product. That is years of case law, not a factory policy; the former kind of trumps the latter.


Mr. HE

 

[Zackman1801]

It's in the STIHL liability procedures manual as far as I know and I was told this in person by a STIHL technical rep. It is absolutely true........ Striaght from the Virginia Beach STIHL facility to my own ears about a month ago. STIHL saws are not supposed to be modified, altered, or adjusted to perform beyond spec (within reason) by any STIHL certified technician. At least that is the way Mid-Atlantic STIHL does it. I don't know about what other STIHL distribution networks say, but Mid-Atlantic STIHL covers their North American headquaters and the things I mentioned earlier are what their policy is.

Well what better reason is there then to buy a Husky?

 

[Adam in VA]

I can't speak to what you heard from a technician about what he read in a manual. I'm curious if you have yourself ever read this policy?

The fact of the matter is that what a customer does to a saw will not automatically void a warranty or exempt Stihl from liability for their product. That is years of case law, not a factory policy; the former kind of trumps the latter.


Mr. HE

Yes, a product modded outside of design spec by way of non-manufacture alteration voids the original warranty. And yes if you modify the product you become the most recent "manufacturer" of the product and become the main brunt of any lawsuit. True it might not fully exempt the STIHL main body, but if the alteration could be linked to any failure then STIHL can say "Well this guy did this and legally became a manufacturer when they changed our product from spec. According to our liability policy this modification makes the person doing the alterations which caused the failure the responsible entity and also according to our policy we cannot be held legally responsible for the actions done by this person." STIHL makes it very clear that if one of their dealers alters a product in any way outside of what their wishes are that in the case of a lawsuit the dealer is now the manufacturer and the dealer and the offending individual are on their own, and not covered by STIHL.

Basically let's say a dealer puts a bow-bar on a new STIHL saw for a guy...... STIHL absolutely says that anyone who puts a bow-bar on a STIHL saw is voiding the warranty and STIHL is not responsible for any accident involving a bow-bar on a STIHL saw, because STIHL does not offer a bow-bar and they openly say never put a bow-bar on our saws because it's your a$$ and not ours. So the dealer puts it on there and the guy has an accident.... Well he tries to sue anyone he can think of that he can get some money out of.....dealership, GM, service manager, guy who sold him the saw, parts department, technician who put the bow-bar on, etc, etc, Well since STIHL openly let's everyone know that legally they say not to put the bow-bar on then they cannot be responsible as the manufacturer since the guy at the dealership who put that bar on has legally become a "manufacturer" of the saw and he is the one who is responsible for the offending piece that caused the accident. Same thing goes for anything done to any STIHL product that is outside the wishes and specificated capacities of their product. I would imagine that this goes beyond STIHL. I know that Exmark, Massey Ferguson, Grasshopper, ECHO, New Idea, John Deere, Bush Hog, Simplicity, and pretty much any brand of equipment I've ever dealt with have a similar policy as far as knowingly altering their product outside of what the manufacturer designed the product for.

Altering a saw is like mismatching tire sizes and ruining the 4wd front axle on your tractor because the ratio between front and rear tires is not acceptable. Or changing the pulleys on your zeroturn mower to speed up the blades and having one fly off and decapitate your 8 year old son. Or having your lawn tractor run over you with the blades on, because you disabled the seat safety switch because it's an inconvenience. I could go on and on........ If any product is altered outside of spec then the OEM can choose to void any and all warranty and the person doing any unauthorized alteration has legally just made themselves a manufacturer associated with the product. And yes I've read the policy myself before.

 

[RiverRat2]

Hey Taxmantoo!!!!!

Some pics here:
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1011824#post1011824

I remember those,,,, saws a little alky/Nitro,,,, with some bean oil,,,,


MMM smelled good!!!!!!! and did they sing a tune!!!!!!!!

 

[pgg]

Drilling a hole in a chainsaw muffler.

A dipstick revving some hotted lawnmower with kids standing around.

Not the same thing.

 

[Hddnis]

Yes, a product modded outside of design spec by way of non-manufacture alteration voids the original warranty. And yes if you modify the product you become the most recent "manufacturer" of the product and become the main brunt of any lawsuit. True it might not fully exempt the STIHL main body, but if the alteration could be linked to any failure then STIHL can say "Well this guy did this and legally became a manufacturer when they changed our product from spec. According to our liability policy this modification makes the person doing the alterations which caused the failure the responsible entity and also according to our policy we cannot be held legally responsible for the actions done by this person." STIHL makes it very clear that if one of their dealers alters a product in any way outside of what their wishes are that in the case of a lawsuit the dealer is now the manufacturer and the dealer and the offending individual are on their own, and not covered by STIHL.

Basically let's say a dealer puts a bow-bar on a new STIHL saw for a guy...... STIHL absolutely says that anyone who puts a bow-bar on a STIHL saw is voiding the warranty and STIHL is not responsible for any accident involving a bow-bar on a STIHL saw, because STIHL does not offer a bow-bar and they openly say never put a bow-bar on our saws because it's your a$$ and not ours. So the dealer puts it on there and the guy has an accident.... Well he tries to sue anyone he can think of that he can get some money out of.....dealership, GM, service manager, guy who sold him the saw, parts department, technician who put the bow-bar on, etc, etc, Well since STIHL openly let's everyone know that legally they say not to put the bow-bar on then they cannot be responsible as the manufacturer since the guy at the dealership who put that bar on has legally become a "manufacturer" of the saw and he is the one who is responsible for the offending piece that caused the accident. Same thing goes for anything done to any STIHL product that is outside the wishes and specificated capacities of their product. I would imagine that this goes beyond STIHL. I know that Exmark, Massey Ferguson, Grasshopper, ECHO, New Idea, John Deere, Bush Hog, Simplicity, and pretty much any brand of equipment I've ever dealt with have a similar policy as far as knowingly altering their product outside of what the manufacturer designed the product for.

Altering a saw is like mismatching tire sizes and ruining the 4wd front axle on your tractor because the ratio between front and rear tires is not acceptable. Or changing the pulleys on your zeroturn mower to speed up the blades and having one fly off and decapitate your 8 year old son. Or having your lawn tractor run over you with the blades on, because you disabled the seat safety switch because it's an inconvenience. I could go on and on........ If any product is altered outside of spec then the OEM can choose to void any and all warranty and the person doing any unauthorized alteration has legally just made themselves a manufacturer associated with the product. And yes I've read the policy myself before.

I don't doubt that Stihl company policy says that.

It does not matter what Stihl says one way or the other. If they are sued and found liable that will be the ruling and Stihl will pay. It also does not matter what their warranty policy says because in many states that is set by law and company policy has nothing to with it.

A simple point and one supported many times by many product liability lawsuits. I don't agree that it should be that way. It leads to silly labels like "Don't iron clothes while wearing." But in the end you can't cite Stihl company policy as authority for legal reality.




Mr. HE

 

[SMTM]

I think we need to see some pictures of this muffler mod before we call down judgment on the guy. I've seen a few that reeked of hillbilly hacksaws, duct tape, baling wire and rice burners with no exhaust. There was even a kid on here a few years ago who posted pictures of a perfectly good muffler he'd stabbed a screwdriver through and was proud about it.

Here you go

I ported the muffler with four 5/16" holes cleaned and deburred with a air grinder....Could not fine my screw driver and baling wire

 

[Adam in VA]

I don't doubt that Stihl company policy says that.

It does not matter what Stihl says one way or the other. If they are sued and found liable that will be the ruling and Stihl will pay. It also does not matter what their warranty policy says because in many states that is set by law and company policy has nothing to with it.

A simple point and one supported many times by many product liability lawsuits. I don't agree that it should be that way. It leads to silly labels like "Don't iron clothes while wearing." But in the end you can't cite Stihl company policy as authority for legal reality.




Mr. HE

When I know of about two dozen instances where exactly what we are talking about has happened and the warranty issues and policy I've been talking about panned out the way I've described, then it's not just company policy, that IS reality. The main point is........ IF A DEALER DOES ANYTHING TO ALTER A SAW OUTSIDE OF OEM SPECS AND OUTSIDE OF THEIR ORIGINAL WISHES THEN THAT DEALER WILL BE EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO MORE LEGAL LIABILITY THAN THEY PREVIOUSLY WOULD HAVE AND THUS BY THEIR ACTIONS HAVE MADE THEMSELVES EITHER MORE ACCOUNTABLE THAN OEM OR POSSIBLY ENTIRELY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE INCIDENT.

Thus if a dealer decides not to work on a modded saw for the simple reason that they would like to limit their liability as much as possible then I don't blame them. We sometimes don't like conservative dealers because they don't sell a saw as cheaply as we like or they don't work on something for us over something disputable, but often times those dealers are the ones who are more stable to stay business for the long haul. For example the STIHL dealer I deal with has been in business for over a hundred and twenty five years, they have the best inventory, they have two GOLD certified techs, they sell the highest volume of STIHL products by far in the area even though a couple of other dealers sell saws $20-$50 less, and they do not work on modded products. They would be the type of dealer that many of you would you would not do business with. So the other STIHL guy down the road sells saws cheaply just to do it, he keeps low inventory, he is not GOLD certified, and will work on anything that comes in the door. Well he does something to a saw for a customer that results in the person being killed.....Well the guy gets sued and let's say even STIHL has to pay a little out of the pocket...... Well his dealership goes under, STIHL makes their policies even a little less friendly for end users to deal with, service techs get even stingier on what they work on, and you get PO'd because your STIHL guy doesn't want to work on your modded saw to avoid liability, so you seek out anybody who will do what you want with the saw. So who is better off that the original incident happened?

And yes pgg at the heart of it all drilling holes in the muffler and altering a mower to have higher blade tip speed are the same thing. Either one affects warranty and since both alter the original design spec they both change legal implication. I'm just saying that other than irritating the original poster and riling everyone up the service guy was doing what he was supposed to by his dealer's policy, STIHL guidleines, or legality concerns. I'm not going to say anything more about it. Good discussion and let's just let it go until it inevitably comes up again in another post.

 

[AOD]

And yes pgg at the heart of it all drilling holes in the muffler and altering a mower to have higher blade tip speed are the same thing. Either one affects warranty and since both alter the original design spec they both change legal implication. I'm just saying that other than irritating the original poster and riling everyone up the service guy was doing what he was supposed to by his dealer's policy, STIHL guidleines, or legality concerns. I'm not going to say anything more about it. Good discussion and let's just let it go until it inevitably comes up again in another post.

If this was true then anyone who does any aftermarket modifications to their car would be voiding their warranty and subjecting the auto manufacturer to product liability lawsuits.

The world would be a much better place if we got rid of all the lawyers and insurance people.

 

[stihl86]

Until you get hit by a drunk uninsured driver.

 

[AOD]

Until you get hit by a drunk uninsured driver.

Not in a no-fault state.

 

[spacemule]

Here you go

I ported the muffler with four 5/16" holes cleaned and deburred with a air grinder....Could not fine my screw driver and baling wire

Well that certainly looks ok.

I get a kick out of all the legal "experts" on here, don't you?

 

[THALL10326]

Well that certainly looks ok.

I get a kick out of all the legal "experts" on here, don't you?

I get a kick out of them too, especailly you,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Kemper]

I can't speak to what you heard from a technician about what he read in a manual. I'm curious if you have yourself ever read this policy?

The fact of the matter is that what a customer does to a saw will not automatically void a warranty or exempt Stihl from liability for their product. That is years of case law, not a factory policy; the former kind of trumps the latter.


Mr. HE

I got news for ya, Stihl does not have to honor warranty for a saw that has been modified, lets see here,,i go out and buy a brand new saw,modify the cylinder,port the muffler and remove the limiter caps to tune the saw, the the rod breaks and destroys the cylinder,piston and the case, do you think the local dealer will give you a new saw???? don't think so....

 

[ropensaddle]

I got news for ya, Stihl does not have to honor warranty for a saw that has been modified, lets see here,,i go out and buy a brand new saw,modify the cylinder,port the muffler and remove the limiter caps to tune the saw, the the rod breaks and destroys the cylinder,piston and the case, do you think the local dealer will give you a new saw???? don't think so....

Maybe they could build the saw right the first time.