Diesel

[firewood guy]

I have a late '05 Dodge 2500 4wd with the Cummins and six speed manual. I love the engine, but will never buy another Chrysler product. They switched transmissions during the '05 model year and went to a Mercedes tranny. There is nothing wrong with the transmission, but they didn't specify a proper final drive ratio. As a consequence, the engine spun much fast than previous model years for the same speed down the road. It was very uncomfortable at highway speeds.

The expensive fix was taller tires. Considering that the original equipment so-called off road tires were useless anywhere but on pavement, it wasn't all wasted money, but it shouldn't have been necessary. I hear they fixed the final drive ratio in the '07 models, but that didn't do me or any other late '05 manual tranny buyers any good. We got royally screwed.

My model year does not have locking hubs. They are fixed, and there is/was no factory option. The front axle turns all the time. This is a major PITA. Not only is it a serious waste of fuel, but it essentially precludes the use of four wheel low to prevent having to slip the clutch during tight backing maneuvers with a trailer on dry pacement or hard ground. To make things worse, idle speed in reverse is actually faster than in first gear. It is much too fast for safe backing in close quarters.

Dodges come with a useless limited slip differential. It does not use clutches like most units. As a consequence, there is no limited slip function unless the vehicle is already moving too fast to be useful. Starting from a stop on a muddy woods road is just the same as a regular open differential. There is no limited slip function even when creeping. About the only thing it is good for is on snowy road, once you are already moving. Then it actually functions.

I get 17 MPG running light on our back roads. Towing, I get 12 to 13. I am no kid, and I baby my truck. Fixes are very expensive on these things, as others have mentioned. Fuel mileage is very emission control specific on these engines. What Joe-Bob gets in his 15 year old Ram has no relevance to what you can expect from a new truck.

If you run in really cold weather, you will need to add an anti-gelling additive to the tank. The rest of the diesel fuel "conditioners" are expensive snake oil. I never use any. The sole exception would be a biocide, if the truck was going to sit for a long time (months) without being used.

There are a bunch of other things, like how almost every one of them develops a pull to the right after a couple of thousand miles, how they gave a manual transmission four wheel drive vehicle a foot operated emergency brake (beyond stupid, except for people with three feet). Try feathering a foot operated emergency brake when you are stopped on a slippery slop and trying to start back up again. Did I mention the limited slip differential doesn't work in that scenario?

Never again.

I have a 07 3500 4x4 w/ the limited slip diffs and stock hwy michellin hwy tread tires, and have no problems w/ a 12k loaded traier on very bad road conditions.. IE lots of clay, lots of inclines / downgrades. I have had lots o trucks, but the the DANA axles that the Dodge uses are bullet-proof. My friends w/ Chevys are getting stuck all the the time on the same roads w/ there indebentant front axle system. My Ford friends are doing just fine... By the way, I own all of them, and I would reccomend the Dodge over the rest in MHOP. PS.. I have a 5500 Chev w/ a Duramax / Allison that is the biggest turd that I ever bought (2005).... I love the old Ford 7.3 Internationals though!!
Diesel is the way to go if you have to pull the freight!!!!!

 

[firewood guy]

if you are going to go diesel go with a 96 F-35 ford with a 7.3, or a 2000 to 06 dodge with a Cummins.

You can streach that to an early '07 if it's still the 5.9L The later '07's had the bigger emissions engine that had the same HP, but lower MPG. Love my 325 HP 5.9!!

 

[firewood guy]

If you want to get into it, biodiesel can take the fuel costs right out of the decision. A farmer up the road from me started making it for all his equipment. I found him by doing a craigslist search on their discussion boards. We got a barter system going and my 7.3 powerstroke loves the stuff!

As stated previously, all choices come with trade offs. This one has been eliminated for me. No cold start issues or gelling. Truck pulls better than my Chevy 2500.

Gotta ask the question.. Me and a buddy of mine looked into the biodiesel process about 2 years ago.. even flew into Golden , CO for the International biodiesel conf. When diesel fuel was about 4-5 bucks / gal it looked promising. But then if you look @ the start-up costs, the additives that are needed, the regulartory aspects, the permits, etc, if you take out the govt subsidizes it makes no sence. And even 80% bio-diesel WILL gel @ 30F. I've done the research/experiments. We don't have the tech yet, but stay tuned!! The input costs of bio dsl are too much. IE the methanol and the cracking agents. It's just like E-85 Ethanol that the Gov't wants us to use. Costs less due to gov't payouts, but actually costs more to produce than gasoline. Plus don't forget that that most fuel systems are not designed for aternative fuels. Bio Dsl can cause fuel filters to come "un-glued" and foul the entire fuel system on a diesel. Do the research.. it's frightening!!

 

[4seasons]

Yep have used them for years. Depends on what you use them for, if towing you can not beat them, and they will cost less to run towing heavy loads. As for oil change, which everybody who has never driven one focuses on.. yes they take more oil (more compression, longer throw on crank, hence bigger pan). But other than oil, they are cheaper to run than any of our gasoline trucks. We run Amsoil synthetic.. if you put an Amsoil bypass filter on then you can go a lot longer between changes (the synthetic does not break down) and the bypass cleans out the soot and crap. Keep the bypass filter changed. Amsoil has it on their site.. as do a lot of others. We have over 400K on one of our trucks..

I have seen a Peterbuilt that they claim to have put 1 million miles on with one oil change using a bypass system like that. Never met someone with a little truck with a bypass though. Do you send you oil samples out for analysis or do you just change it so often? How long is your oil lasting?

 

[mdavlee]

I'm more of the old school change your oil every 5k miles. The oil change is $50. for me it's 6-10 times a year. This past year was the least miles I put on a vehicle at 32k. I changed the oil at 1500 miles the first time and every 5k after. With the fuel contamination on these new trucks I don't trust a by pass system to get the fuel out. This is for any of the newer trucks that regen.

 

[ICindrich]

Currently my father and I are running 3 personal pickups on top of our big trucks. They all 2500HD crew cabs, the 2000 a gasser (200k, dad's daily driver), the 03' a diesel (182k, my daily driver), and the 07 also a diesel (50k, my dad does a lot of out of state hunting and whatever). I currently need another truck for myself as the 03' is a bit old to be running to be taking snowboard trips every other weekend. It has never left me stranded but I have nightmares of being stranded on the side of RT 91 in the middle of no were VT with no cell service on a 10 degree friday night...

I have been assessing my needs and options and have come to the following conclusions;

1. I need a diesel to tow my tractor, skidsteer and mini-x with. I have towed with the gas engines and like previously stated you never want to go back after towing with the diesel.
2. Diesels are very expensive to fix and they do require a decent amount of maintenance. While an my independent mechanic will work on just about any gasser, he won't touch a late model diesel. This leaves you with the dealer as your only option and they get $100/hr for the diesel guy.
3. While diesel motors do last for ever, as stated before the shell of the truck isn't built to last 3-4-500,000 miles; unless you are a true badass you don't want to be trucking the wife and kids around in a truck that worn
4. For about 75% of my driving, i do not need the power or heavy duty-ness of my truck. A car would never do, but a lighter duty truck would do fine.
5. Despite what KBB and NADA say (they say my truck should trade in at $12000), high mileage trucks aren't worth anything (dealer offered me $8000 and while not perfect, the truck is in very good shape)

So I have come to this conclusion:

$50,000 diesel pick ups are too expensive to waste on daily commuting (although they are cool as hell)
I am going to keep my current diesel and keep up on the maintenance, driving it solely when it is needed
For my daily run around truck I am going to buy a nice 1500 4x4 gasser


just my .02

 

[rrausch]

I have a '95 Dodge/Cummins 2500, 2-WD that has 270,000 miles on it and runs great. It's only made me walk one time, and that was transmission related. I get 20-21 mpg driving 65-70 mph on the Interstate with 500 pounds of tools in the bed. I've owned three Chevy trucks (1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1.5 ton dump truck) and one Ferd 1-ton, and this Dodge/Cummins is the best one of the lot.

The Cummins 12-valve engines are more reliable than the early 24 valve engines. The initial run of 24-valve engines used an Injection pump that wasn't the most reliable. But the common-rail injection engines in the later model trucks seem to be good. If you go to DieselTruckResource.com you can learn a lot about these trucks from people who already own them.

 

[bigbadbob]

The initial run of 24-valve engines used an Injection pump that wasn't the most reliable. But the common-rail injection engines in the later model trucks seem to be good. If you go to DieselTruckResource.com you can learn a lot about these trucks from people who already own them.

Most time it wasnt the pump itself but the lift pump, it would go with no warning and take the injection pump with it as there was enough diesel to run but not enough to cool the IP.
I have a LED on the dash, goes off below 7psi, saved me twice, still on the original IP 1998.5 (one of the very first VP44 IP's) 210,000 on the third lift pump.
Its chipped to boot.

 

[fields_mj]

I'll throw in my 2 bits. I drive a '93 ext cab 4x4 F250. It has the old 7.3 IDI diesel, and a 5 speed tranny. Love the truck. It is my daily driver. Gave $4K for it in the summer of '09. It gets 18 mpg, but it needs to have new injectors and a new IP pump. That, and a timing job should get it up to 19 or 20. A comparable gas engine would likely get 12 or 13. I know guys with relatively new dodges that get 22 to 24 mpg. You pay about 7% more for the fuel, but you get 10%~20% better milage. Worth the trade every time.

Year for year, the cummins has always been the best motor on the market, but the dodge trucks are WAY over priced. The motor is great, but the rest of the truck is only so so at best. With Ford, the old IDI (prior to mid '94) was a great engine, but the quality on the power strokes were iffy at best. I've heard that they were pretty good in '97, but then made some changes and went back down hill. It will be interesting to see what their 6.4L is like in a few years. Duramax is some where in the middle. Over all the ranking goes like this. Cummins 12 valve (pre 99), IH 7.3L IDI (pre mid '94), 24V cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke. A good forum for Ford diesels is oilburners.net

You do not have to add an additive to the fuel. The additive does two things. It helps lubricate the IP pump, and many of them lower the gel point of the fuel. If you buy fuel at a truck stop in the winter, you WILL need to add an additive because they generally sell the same fuel year round. If you buy from a local gas station, they normally switch over to a winter diesel blend when it starts getting cool out. You loose 1 or 2 mpg, but it won't gell up on you unless it gets really cold. I've been told that you can add 5% gas to the fuel, and it will run fine and the fuel won't gel. Never tried it, but I'm going to play around with it using water bottles and my deep freeze once the start selling regular D2 ULSD in the spring. I generally do run an additive. I put 5 oz of Power Service ($13 at wally world) in at every fill up. Power Service is one of the better additives. There are a couple that are better, but they are harder to find. The LUCAS OIL additive sucks.

Like any vehicle, a diesel needs to be driven. They don't do well on short trips because they take so long to get up to operating temperature. If a diesel sits, things go wrong.

The real draw back to a diesel is the repair costs. Everything on them is heavy duty, and so the parts are more expensive. The newer diesels are also expensive to work on, especially the Fords. The trucks last a long time, but when something does break, it's going to cost you. I went with the 7.3L because I could not afford $10K for a '94 dodge (insane!!!), and the 7.3 IDI is very reliable and pretty easy to work on. Like others have said, most of this can be blamed on the EPA. As the requirements for diesels have gotten more restrictive, they've really had to mess the engines up pretty bad to accommodate. For some reason the EPA believes that you can still put out less emissions even if you reduce the fuel mileage.

Now transmissions are a whole other story. No body has ever put an Automatic transmission behind a diesel and had it hold up over the long haul. I understand that the Allison that chevy uses is about the best, but if you do a lot of hauling you will eventually still have to have work done to it. The manuals seem to hold up a lot better, and when they go it's a lot cheaper to get them going again.

That's my 2 bits,
Mark

 

[firewood guy]

Most time it wasnt the pump itself but the lift pump, it would go with no warning and take the injection pump with it as there was enough diesel to run but not enough to cool the IP.
I have a LED on the dash, goes off below 7psi, saved me twice, still on the original IP 1998.5 (one of the very first VP44 IP's) 210,000 on the third lift pump.
Its chipped to boot.

Wish I had thought about that w/ my 99 3500 dually. On its third injection pump, as you stated, probably was due to LIFT PUMP failure. Poor design. Hope the late 5.9's don't have similiar problems. A tech at my dealership said there is a "fix" that junks the factory lift pump and replaces it with an in-tank unit. Don't know if that is true, but nevertheless it's expensive! Only the first inj pump was covered under warranty, the others were about $2200.00 installed using chrysler reman units.

 

[rrausch]

I'll throw in my 2 bits. No body has ever put an Automatic transmission behind a diesel and had it hold up over the long haul. I understand that the Allison that chevy uses is about the best. Mark

Ditto on the Allison being the best stock auto, but ATS in Denver, Colo rebuilt my 47RH (stock for '95 Dodge) automatic trans in 2001. I've put 163,000 miles on it and it's still going strong with no rebuild. ATS built it to hold 1,000 pounds of torque and 700 HP. Since I'm only making 600 Ft. pounds torque and a little less than 300 H.P. I'm doing fine. I tow in Overdrive and have never had a problem. I expect it to go many tens of thousands more miles, with luck another 100,000 or so before a rebuild.

 

[jimbojango]

Ditto on the Allison being the best stock auto, but ATS in Denver, Colo rebuilt my 47RH (stock for '95 Dodge) automatic trans in 2001. I've put 163,000 miles on it and it's still going strong with no rebuild. ATS built it to hold 1,000 pounds of torque and 700 HP. Since I'm only making 600 Ft. pounds torque and a little less than 300 H.P. I'm doing fine. I tow in Overdrive and have never had a problem. I expect it to go many tens of thousands more miles, with luck another 100,000 or so before a rebuild.

my automatic has 308,000 and never been touched, in a dodge. 03.. she's pulled her guts out her entire life maybe ATS put the "better" converter under it though. My converter is finally getting a little egg shaped, you can hear it wobble a little under there

 

[thejdman04]

Around here older diesels that aren't totally beat up or rusted to junk are hard to find. If you can find an older diesel, I would go that way, they will run forever, and you can fix most things yourself. That being said, if you are looking for a newer vehicle, esp brand new, I would go with a gasser. Modern day gas vehicles will go 200,000 mi+ with no major problems if taken care of. The new diesels are very complicated and expensive and now have urea injection. That presents a whole new can of worms when the vehicle gets 20 years old. Such as the urea tanks are supposed to be heated and when you shut it off the lines are supposed to be purged so they don't freeze, but what happens when that quits working? I have an 07 Chevy D max that has 18,000 miles on it that I haven't driven since August of last year, simply because I can not afford to drive it. To make a long story short it has been to 3 different dealers, I have spent over 7,000 dollars on it and it still will not crank over or run. The D maxes I was told have peanut oil in the wiring harnesses, (the protective coating), and have had some mice damage to the wiring. Of course warranty wont cover mice damage and I have taken it to 3 different dealers who were supposedly the best of the best at fixing Chevrolet diesels and none of them have fixed it for more then a few hundred miles. When you spend 3500 dollars getting it fixed and it barley makes it home the 60 miles from the dealership that gets mighty expensive. Each time it went to the garage a whole bunch of sensors and computers were fried, each time it was the same sensors and computers though. When this happens the truck wont run or crank over. (Ie you are stranded on the side of the road). Not like the old 12 valve Cummins, etc where it was all mechanical and almost never leave you stranded, these new ones when they are working right have a ton of power quiet and smooth but one problem and they are dead and VERY expensive to fix, if you can find someone qualified to REALLY fix them and not just plug a computer in find this that and the other part is shorted out and replace them and not find the real problem. If you are constantly towing and hauling diesel is the way to go. If this is your commuter vehicle/towing hauling, I would throw the nod to the gasser as well. Around here diesel is 3.39 and gas is 2.99. Any fuel economy savings (which are very small when empty), gets thrown out the window when there is that big of a price spread between gas and diesel.

 

[bigbadbob]

thejdman04 it sucks to have a lemon no matter what brand!!!
Sounds like you got big electical problems!!
I have yet to go to the dealer, I can lay on my back or play with my computer for a long time for $100 an hour.
And yup it seems if the new 'Tech' cant see it on the computer he cant fix it.
I hope you get your issues sorted out. Would be interesting to find whe the casue is.

 

[thejdman04]

thejdman04 it sucks to have a lemon no matter what brand!!!
Sounds like you got big electical problems!!
I have yet to go to the dealer, I can lay on my back or play with my computer for a long time for $100 an hour.
And yup it seems if the new 'Tech' cant see it on the computer he cant fix it.
I hope you get your issues sorted out. Would be interesting to find whe the casue is.

Thanks, I am not looking to hijack this thread, but the new techs from the most part from what I have found around here ( I am not saying there aren't good ones out there), seem to plug the computer in say this isn't communicating with this, this is dead this is shorted out, they put the new sensors on it (which some are 700 dollars a piece like the turbo vane position sensor), it runs for a few seconds and they ship it out the door as "fixed." A couple hours of running and it hits the right bump and shorts out (or does whatever it is doing, I don't really know or I would fix it), and there goes another 3500 bucks. I have call GM corp and they just pass the buck to the dealer, they are independently owned, this isn't a warranty issue what do you want us to do? Well granted it is a mice issue (they have found some wires chewed and supposedly fixed that, yet I am still having problems with the truck), but it is still a Chevy truck taken to 3 Chevy dealers it isn't fixed, Gm corp in my eyes should want to take care of it, get it fixed and take care of their customer. You can have problems with any brand, but when you have a problem you expect to get it fixed and someone to care. I have bought Chevy my entire life but this one is my last. Until I find someone who will in writing guarantee the truck and the fixes to the truck it will sit. Many guys say they can fix it, and think then can, but to even get the truck to run requires about 3500 dollars worth of parts and computers, and if they think they have it fixed, and think they know what they are doing, and don't well I am out again. I have talked to some very brilliant guys out there who I think are pretty smart and have a very good knowledge of the Chevy Dmax, but until they will guarantee their work, which I haven't found anyone to do yet, the truck will sit.

 

[Bob95065]

I have a 1997 Dodge 2500 4x4 with a 12 valve Cummins under the hood mated to a NV4500 5 speed transmission. It has 3.55 gears in the differentials and the 1 ton spring set (camper package). I bought it used in 2007 with 200k on the odometer.

I will never buy a gas truck again.

I weighed in on the scale at the dump. With the tank 3/4 full, a tool box in the bed and me in the cab it tipped the scale at 7700 pounds. Empty I get 23 MPG. I can easily put 3/4 cord of oak in the bed (stacked 1/2 way up the rear window) and PASS people going uphill.

I am my own mechanic. This truck was neglected when I got it. I went through the truck and repaired the vacuum system, fluid changes, all the u-joints, oil leaks, screwed up wiring, and other repairs. I can fix anything on it myself because it is so simple.

The 12 valve engine was made until 1/98. At that time the EPA enacted new laws that led to computer controlled engines. I bought my truck because I wanted the mechanical fuel injection of the 12 valve engine and I knew that the California CARB would someday smog diesels and I thought that 1998 would be the cutoff date. I was right and I am smog free.

There is a plate that sets the fuel curve for the injector pump. In 10 minutes I can change the plate and position and gain 100 HP.

I change my own oil and buy it in bulk from a local oil supplier. I pay about $30 a change. I built a home made gravity fed filtering system that filters used oil to .33 microns. I then run 10 gallons of used oil with 20 gallons of diesel in my fuel tank. I run oil from my two cars and other people's cars who's oil I change. That saves me about $30 per tank so I figure oil changes are paid for in using oil for fuel.

I would look for a used truck in the south or west and figure on some time off and a road trip home. If you are mechanically inclined you will save a lot of money buying a diesel. If not you would need to buy a new truck $$$$$$ and have it maintained by someone else $$$$.

I had never owned a diesel and was intimidated at first. There are tons of web boards for these trucks. Join one, read, study and ask questions. Learn from others experience and mistakes and you will come out ahead. If you like I can steer you to the two Dodge boards I frequent.

Hope this helps,

Bob

 

[iowa]

I have been looking around lately for a different truck. Probably going to buy something this spring or summer. I have been looking heavy into buying a diesel.. My first choice is a 00-03.5 F250 with the club cab and 4x4. I'm looking to buy something used but has under 125k miles. This is really tuff to find with this vehicle. My other choice is the Chevy Duramax. I can find more of them, but they they usually want an arm and leg for them.

After reading all of this it really has me wondering! Why even get a diesel? My main reason for getting a 3/4ton diesel is so that when hauling wood, a car hear and there, etc. and have plenty of power and weight to get the job done and not tear the guts out of the half ton that I have now.. This would be a daily driver as I drive 30 miles one way to work. Mostly hyw. and interstate. So I thought I could probably jump from 14-15mpg to 19-20mpg..

However after reading most of the responses on this thread I've come to the conclusion that unless you are pulling a trailer or using the vehicle as a work truck etc. it would probably be cheaper and better going with a gasser..

I have an 03 F150 ext cab 4x4 right now with 174xxx miles. It runs very good and is well taken care of. But it's only a matter of time before things need replaced. I'm replacing the front hubs this week as they're both growling from time to time..

A guy at work bought a brand new 2010 F150 crew cab 4x4 and he's reporting 17.75mpg going back and forth to work! Not bad for the 5.4L flex system... And this truck doesn't even have 8k miles on it yet! So it's not even broke in.

I think I need to be looking for a gasser. Cheaper maintenance cost and initial purchase.. :sidefrown:

 

[alleyyooper]

I'm on my third Cummins. First one was a 91 250 4x4 12 valve with 4 sp manual, 3:54 gear, locking front hubs . It got great millage going to and from work adveraging 21 MPH, 24 fully loaded with the flite way fiberglasscap and all our hunting grear and food for two weeks at deer camp had a 240,00 it when I sold it . Second one because I wanted a quad cab a 1998 2500 4x4 12valve with 5 sp manual 4:10 gear (gone were the locking hubs because city people don't like to get out and lock them) It got a steady 18 MPH going back and forth to work and loaded with a Jason fiber glass cap and our hunting gear for 2 weeks at deer camp. It could only do about 83 MPH on the interstate with the pedal half way thru the floor. 4:10 isn't a gear for me I found out even though I pull a tri axel 22ft equipment trailer and a 22 ft' enclosed V nose trailer About 50% of the time.
Now the third I have a 2004.5 SRW 3500 4x4 6 sp manual 3:73 gear. Just got back from Wisconsin a week ago I got 22 MPG running a mix of 2 lane roads where you got to slow way down going thru some of those small one store villages and I 75.
This would be a truck that got close to 25 or better MPG if the Dodge enginners had any brains. I't got over twice the rated HP of my 91 but they will only put a 3:73 gear in it, again the city people got the locking hubs removed and no option to get them.

Would i buy a new Diesel tomorrow over a gasser. You bet I would even with the city-facation of them.

1991

2004.5

Al

 

[mdavlee]

There are some nice aftermarket hub kits for the dodge trucks. They run about $700-1000 last time I checked. I won't own a gas truck myself. If I want to hook to a big gooseneck with 19 4x5 round bales I want something that will pull it at highway speeds. I want to get another 12 valve dodge as my daily beater truck. I'm tired of the emissions truck with the regen every 5-600 miles and sometimes for over 100 straight miles in regen and using a half tank in 150 miles.

 

[Fronty Owner]

I dont own one, but had one at work.
cummins is the best engine in the long run.
Ford has the best ride quality.
GM is probably the best overall. not as good of ride, not as good of engine, but a good overall truck. Also, has one of the best power building platforms out there.
Personally, I would get one of the late 12 valve cummins trucks.
I see your in Northern Indiana, you'll want an anti-gel additive in the winter.

as far as economics. Man, you could argue this 9 different ways.
Do you currently have a truck? Is this a tow rig? Is it a daily driver? How many mile per year? Are you ready to meet your local DOT guy?
The last question is a serious one. You drive a diesel on a farm, you will get pulled over occationally and they are going to pull a sample of your fuel.