Electric Line Mishap?????
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futbalfantic
ArboristSite Member
Sounds to me he has 0 personal liability in this other then loosing and employer
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I think everybody has some liability in this situation. Me personally, I am responsible for the safety of everyone on the crews. The guy in the bucket has a line clearance certification card from Townsend. He felt he knew more about electric lines than anyone else. I maintain a minimum approach distance and contract the electric company for "make safes". The job instructions were ignored by the operator and the foreman. The foreman instructed the operator to go over the lines.
We had an incident briefing and reviewed everything that went wrong and placed procedures in place to prevent future mistakes.
I spent almost 15 years as the main cutter for my company. I controlled every aspect of the job because I was on every job. I am not sure how to deal with this situation. The guys on the job are experienced but why they did what they did I am not sure. At the end of the day....I took the repsonsibility....and I guess legally it falls on the owners of the company (i.e. the foreman on the job and the president).
We had an incident briefing and reviewed everything that went wrong and placed procedures in place to prevent future mistakes.
I spent almost 15 years as the main cutter for my company. I controlled every aspect of the job because I was on every job. I am not sure how to deal with this situation. The guys on the job are experienced but why they did what they did I am not sure. At the end of the day....I took the repsonsibility....and I guess legally it falls on the owners of the company (i.e. the foreman on the job and the president).
Iustinian
ArboristSite Operative
Definitely not the first (or the last time) that one of us will say "WHY THE F DID YOU DO THAT?"
One more point I have for you, which is of the utmost importance -- the fact that your man there has a line clearance certification card has absolutely ZERO relevance to the situation. It in no way, shape, or form qualifies him or allows any part of your business operation to break minimum approach under any circumstances whatsoever. Residential tree crews cannot break the 10 ft minimum separation distance, regardless of the purported experience or certification of the employee; the company itself must maintain the certifications which allow their crews to work within 2'4"-10' of the energized lines and conductors, and that certification is maintained only for the purpose of line clearance, not for residential tree work. Your man could be an ISA Certified Utility Specialist and have completed the Line Clearance Qualification Standard, but while he's working for you or anyone else performing residential tree work, he must not break the minimum approach distance as regulated in your area. I realize that you are not saying that it is so, just throwing all that out there.
The best thing you can do is contact your electrical utilities service provider and ask to speak with their Forestry supervisor and talk with him/her about the rules and regs in your area, and your willingness to comply. Your contact with that person could lead to a beneficial relationship to the extent that he/she may decide to refer work to you, because those guys are often bombarded with requests for tree services beyond that which they provide. We get a lot of calls from people that were referred that way. It adds a lot of credibility and legitimacy to your business when the power company's forestry supervisor refers work to you. Good luck!
I agree with you 100%. I appreciate the information you have given me. I never tried to push the blame off on anyone else. I posted relevant information. I instructed the crew on what to do and they disregarded those instructions, but that does not take away the blame from myself. I have a great working relationship with all the local utilities and I was embarassed by the incident. In fact, we have been hired by the municipality to take down large trees in tough situations. I am not sure why they broke the minimum separation distance. I would have never done it and it would not have been done if I was onsite. So, I guess I need to start holding hands with all my employees. I understand the whole minimum separation distance and try to follow it as closely as I can. We recognized we had a major flaw in our training and SOPs. I guess my point of posting the incident was to gain further knowledge, especially of the line clearance. The cutter acted as if it was standard operating procedure to work in the manner he did. I told him it was not standard for clearance guys to touch live wires, let alone get within the 10' feet. I wanted to gather feedback from the industry.
I am not trying to throw anybody under the bus. I am here to learn from the mistake and make the company I work for safer.
DavidBrown1212
ArboristSite Operative
Stuff happens. Sounds like you knew what you knew what went wrong and what you can do to prevent similar mishaps in the future. **** everyone else, I recently lost a man, a good man not far from retirement, to accident. Messed me up until I realised we all knew who supposed to be where doing what, but people like shortcuts. Those can be a god dam mess, but so many get away so often they take it for granted sometimes.
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Teamtree, ur link, to ur site, dont work yo.
If the company has SOP about operating around power lines, (which the crew has reviewed and signed off on), and you instructed the crews prior to the job not to go within the SWD, then this is clearly an insubordination issue, which requires employee discipline of some form (verbal reprimand, written reprimand, suspension or termination depending on company policy). Supervisors, who are not working supervisors on the job (ie foremen/crew leader), are not expected to be onsite every moment of the day and have therefore delegated some responsibility to the crew leader. Therefore, the crew leader has accountability.
If your company doesn't have those SOP's in place, signed off by the crews, then the company is guilty of improperly supervising their crews. This is a very popular term used by the safety agencies.
In our jurisdiction, a Cert Utility Arborist, working on residential work can work within the Safe Working Limit (to the same limits as line clearance contractors) providing they take out A Non-Reclosure Permit first. (if the wires are accidentally touched and trips the fuse/circuit breaker, then the breaker won't automatically reclose, reenergizing the line).
Good info.....thanks!
PassionForTrees
ArboristSite Operative
It all seems to always fall short of training!! yeah it cost money and time to train! Thats what it takes to do it right, get someone experienced to teach show and tell and be up there with you doing it, two very different things to pass a EHAP test or seminar for all the guys and then go out and apply it to real trees and low hanging branches near the wires. You can not mess up your dead!! take this work more serious and pay the money for proper training. In all phases of Tree work!
out on a linb
ArboristSite Lurker
I work for a utility company and the rule around here is that if you are anually line QUALIFIED than it is depending on the voltage 13200-12470 is 2 ft 2 in, and all others must stay 10 ft away.
treeslayer
Addicted to ArboristSite
hopefully you fired the guy that was flying the bucket.
TreeGuyHR
ArboristSite Guru
I'd have to look it up, but there are standards for how close a climber (or rigging) can get to a line depending on if he is certified or not; certification means he can get closer, I assume because of training, special gear, and knowing when to have the lines covered or shut off.
I don't remember the voltage, but I removed a big pine over multiple bare cables that were about an inch in diameter. I had the utility come out and discussed my work plan with them; they used a bucket to cut two limbs within 10 ft. and left the rest to us. We used a pulley and tag line to swing the limbs to the clear side of the tree, and a fiddleblock attached to sections of trunk ensured they would fall the right way until we were below thee cables. Definitely not a cut and toss tree -- crossing two wires could have blown out power for several thousand people, and could have arced to the tree frying my climber. BTW, he was certified with an earlier company, so he knew what to do around the wires. It was also a dry day -- there is something a bit un-nerving working near wires crackling in humid air or rain.
I don't remember the voltage, but I removed a big pine over multiple bare cables that were about an inch in diameter. I had the utility come out and discussed my work plan with them; they used a bucket to cut two limbs within 10 ft. and left the rest to us. We used a pulley and tag line to swing the limbs to the clear side of the tree, and a fiddleblock attached to sections of trunk ensured they would fall the right way until we were below thee cables. Definitely not a cut and toss tree -- crossing two wires could have blown out power for several thousand people, and could have arced to the tree frying my climber. BTW, he was certified with an earlier company, so he knew what to do around the wires. It was also a dry day -- there is something a bit un-nerving working near wires crackling in humid air or rain.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
Very typical to go over or under and back in my day we even went between the lines but then they started hiring a bunch of know it all guys that burnt lines down and such and that was the end of that...
My mug shot.
Jeff
Jeff
KenJax Tree
Terraphobic
Mods can we get this pic moved to WTF!?!? Thread please.
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VA-Sawyer
Addicted to ArboristSite
Damn, I should hang out with Jeff. Next to him, the gals will think I'm good looking!
Sean80
ArboristSite Member
Was he operating the bucket "over-center" when he came into contact with the lines? I could see how someone could do this with the bucket controls working opposite while "over-center". You can take a bucket above primary wires no problem as long as you or any tool does not exceed your "limits of approach". I never arch the boom up and over the wires, re position the truck several times if you have to. Make sure you always get a hold-off from the local utility company. You're lucky the bucket operator and crew on the ground weren't hurt. If there is ever a situation where it is too close to the wires, simply don't do the job or have the lines de-energized.
