facecut always needed???
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Anthony_Va.
XPW Fan Club
So you plunge in from the back/center, not into the notch itself, right? I have never tried it, but I will soon. I always cut the slashes in each side first when cutting poplar/ashe thats leaning. It seems to help but I see how the cut you're talking about could work better. Thanks for that bud!
this is somewhat on the lines of my technique ,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBcNYMw3CKY
i plunge in along the same lines as the notch about 2 or so inches behind the notch and cut all the way out the back side of the tree
i plunge in along the same lines as the notch about 2 or so inches behind the notch and cut all the way out the back side of the tree
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Anthony_Va.
XPW Fan Club
Yea, I see that. Thats a good way to do it IMO. I'll give that a try next leaner I come across.
Alot of guys cutting firewood or cutting for fun, whatever, can pick thier trees. When I have to clear fencerows, everything has to go. From the straight and pretty, to the twisted and mean. All has to go. I have learned quite a few methods of cutting different positioned trees, from my time logging to my work now, but I have learned one more now.
That looks to almost guarantee to barberchairing. Good job T-Land!
MCW
Somebody's talking crap here & it ain't the tree!
Another thing that people have failed to mention with tow overs or push overs (when forcing a tree against the lean) is to actually cut the tree like a reverse Humboldt.
The backcut comes in lower than the face. This stops the tree either pulling off the stump and going anywhere (when towing), or pushing off the stump and coming back at you. This is a recognised felling technique within New South Wales' (a state of Australia) forestry and works well. I now use it exclusively on tow overs and it's yet to fail.
I have had two big trees get pulled off the stump in the past by over excited tractor operators who decided to "gas" it. The one below caused some issues but luckily it was an old, rusty grain storage bin - the ladder however did die
This is what a 4WD 150HP tractor with an over excited operator can do. The above technique would have 100% stopped this from happening (as would going SLOW!). It was meant to go from right to left and had a heavy lean to the right (over the shed). The stump was nearly bottom right of the photo - that's how much the tractor operator gassed it...
This is the type of cut I mean. This tree was towed over away from the camera and had a very heavy lean towards where the shot was taken from. Both trees were felled in the same way and were also felled into a very strong wind to top it off...
The backcut comes in lower than the face. This stops the tree either pulling off the stump and going anywhere (when towing), or pushing off the stump and coming back at you. This is a recognised felling technique within New South Wales' (a state of Australia) forestry and works well. I now use it exclusively on tow overs and it's yet to fail.
I have had two big trees get pulled off the stump in the past by over excited tractor operators who decided to "gas" it. The one below caused some issues but luckily it was an old, rusty grain storage bin - the ladder however did die
This is what a 4WD 150HP tractor with an over excited operator can do. The above technique would have 100% stopped this from happening (as would going SLOW!). It was meant to go from right to left and had a heavy lean to the right (over the shed). The stump was nearly bottom right of the photo - that's how much the tractor operator gassed it...
This is the type of cut I mean. This tree was towed over away from the camera and had a very heavy lean towards where the shot was taken from. Both trees were felled in the same way and were also felled into a very strong wind to top it off...
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More dangerous than breaking a hinge and having the tree come back on top of you?
Like I said , if it was not leaning toward the loader I wouldn't be pushing it to start with and trees don't barber chair against the lean unless the operator breaks it off before it's cut.
Old man who had been clearing land with dozers for 50 years told me not to. That is all I know about it.
If I don't have any reason not to I let the tree fall where I can make it fall with the cut. If a house, barn or whatever is in play I would much rather pull, but if there is no place to pull from, gully, another house, too thick or whatever I will put the loader up against the tree. I can guide it a little when it starts to fall. It ain't going to barber chair leaning toward you unless the guy on the loader gets excited. If it is mean enough that I think the loader might break it off I'll have my friend cut it from the top down. He owes me about a zillion dollars for fixing his saws for free anyway.
upstateny
ArboristSite Operative
An older faller that I worked with told me about cutting alot of veneer hardwoods back in the 70s and 80s. No "notch" but a face cut. The face cut was simply a kirf wide cut 1/3 of the tree, then back cut and let it go. Saves wood when cutting High Dollar Veneer Logs.
When I cut White/Yellow Birch and Poplar regardless of the Season (spring/summer/fall/winter) I ALWAYS snip the sides of the hinge. If not when a Poplar goes it will tear the sides. Not good especially when Spring time comes and Poplar is paying really well.
Ash. Scared myself silly the first time I cut them in the winter. But as I've learned, made the notch exactly clean, nothing in the way there, and start the back cut. Keep cutting after it starts falling till the hinge is almost gone. Scary, dangerous, puts wood on the ground.
When I cut White/Yellow Birch and Poplar regardless of the Season (spring/summer/fall/winter) I ALWAYS snip the sides of the hinge. If not when a Poplar goes it will tear the sides. Not good especially when Spring time comes and Poplar is paying really well.
Ash. Scared myself silly the first time I cut them in the winter. But as I've learned, made the notch exactly clean, nothing in the way there, and start the back cut. Keep cutting after it starts falling till the hinge is almost gone. Scary, dangerous, puts wood on the ground.
If you know how to do it, you can shove over heavy heavy leaners without problems,( as much as thed machine can handle). I usually do it like this, make a back cut, match it up with a face cut, snip out the heart wood from the face while the back cut closes up,(a wedge helps the tree from going over backwards. But no notch at all to shove a tree I dont understand the logistics behind that at all.. You dont have to cut the hearrt wood, but it helps keep the log in one piece. .
Well, he was the equipment operator not the man doing the sawing. So, I guess his thinking was that he wanted all the holding wood on the other side of the tree from him and felt he was good enough at his job to time his action with the cutter. I know when I was cutting for him he would throw something at me if I was doing something he didn't like to get my attention, LOL. I pretty much did what he said. He would stand a 955 Cat up at a 30 degree angle grubbing up stumps and didn't even wear a seat belt. Come to think of it, maybe he was crazy.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
keep doing things the way you have been and you'll live to tell about it, listen to that friend and he'll be telling people how it happened......
nicksterdemus
ArboristSite Operative
Well, I'm not trying to steer anyone down the wrong path, but dear old dad taught me to notch and then cut even or below the notch w/back cut.
The tree needs to be weighted close to the direction you wish to drop it and you need to have a good eye in determining that's where the tree wants to fall.
All dad ever used was a super XLAO w/16" bar and it didn't exactly get in a hurry cutting.
That was the beauty, I guess, of back cutting even or below the notch.
You didn't overload the hinge or have to cut fast.
Howevah, you needed to sink a plastic wedge behind the bar to prevent possibly pinching and at times help give the tree a nudge in the right direction.
I nevah had one back-up and go the opposite direction, but had a few that
started pirouetting, before falling, w/lack of hinge.
When I was a couple of inches from cutting through I'd stop and pound the
wedge some more and/or add another.
If that didn't do the trick I'd shift my point of attack and start cutting more on one side or the other to encourage the tree to start the fall.
Usually I'd pick the side farthest from me, so I'd have easy access to the closer side, if needed, when the tree started to list.
At that point I could go back to cutting the other side if I needed to adjust the direction of fall.
Of course these were trees cut for firewood and they didn't have any lean to
speak of, for the most part and I wasn't in a hurry.
Having to go in and undercut barber chairs or trees that leaned into another
and stuck/froze always gave me the willies, but I couldn't leave 'em hanging.
The tree needs to be weighted close to the direction you wish to drop it and you need to have a good eye in determining that's where the tree wants to fall.
All dad ever used was a super XLAO w/16" bar and it didn't exactly get in a hurry cutting.
That was the beauty, I guess, of back cutting even or below the notch.
You didn't overload the hinge or have to cut fast.
Howevah, you needed to sink a plastic wedge behind the bar to prevent possibly pinching and at times help give the tree a nudge in the right direction.
I nevah had one back-up and go the opposite direction, but had a few that
started pirouetting, before falling, w/lack of hinge.
When I was a couple of inches from cutting through I'd stop and pound the
wedge some more and/or add another.
If that didn't do the trick I'd shift my point of attack and start cutting more on one side or the other to encourage the tree to start the fall.
Usually I'd pick the side farthest from me, so I'd have easy access to the closer side, if needed, when the tree started to list.
At that point I could go back to cutting the other side if I needed to adjust the direction of fall.
Of course these were trees cut for firewood and they didn't have any lean to
speak of, for the most part and I wasn't in a hurry.
Having to go in and undercut barber chairs or trees that leaned into another
and stuck/froze always gave me the willies, but I couldn't leave 'em hanging.
GREAT, tell someone to keep doing something that has an exponential rate of killing him compared to conventional ways. .
To make things clear, a tree can fall towards its lean without a notch.
If you cut enough wood, It will twist apart, not giving 2 ####s about where you sunk your saw into it.
Please be careful. Injuries with chainsaws and in the woods ultimately make my insurance go up and my pay go down.
tek9tim
ArboristSite Guru
I will admit that I only read through the first page before replying, and that might be a bad idea, but the quality of information being disseminated on this site has gone to hell if people are suggesting that a guy cut 24-27 inch diameter trees 50 or so feet tall without a facecut. To the original poster: use a facecut if you value your livelihood. Any time you btchcut a tree, it barberchairs, even if it is just a little. You know the little tab of wood that slabs off in the front? It's a vertical split up the stem caused by putting more tension onto the wood than it can handle, causing it to split vertically. Acceptable in <5" diameter trees. My best advice, if you're going to fall trees, is to get Doug Dent's book, read it, and know it. And don't try the advanced stuff until you consistently do the basic stuff perfectly.
I'm not sure what picture you guys have in your mind of what I am talking about, but by the time the tree starts to go I have been gone. You don't finish the cut, that is why you have the loader there to start with. You are correct it will barber chair a little, but no more than the bucket will let it. If it can push the loader back I wouldn't have been screwing with it to start with. Might be a good idea to make some minimal notch, but it's crazy to cut much holding wood out of the face cut pushing with a loader. You may end up trying to jump off and dodge a tree coming down on top of you and your equipment.
MCW
Somebody's talking crap here & it ain't the tree!
And thats why you bring your backcut in below the face. You can't push the tree forward off it's stump.
Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm telling him to keep using a face cut and that he could get hurt really bad by not using one....
For years, I would drop a leaning tree [if it was leaning right in the direction I wanted] by forgoing the notch and just cutting right thru from the backside. I figured it saved me some time [though that was not necessary at all] and simplified things. Just cut it, let it fall, move on.
Then, after maybe fifteen years, I had one barber chair so rapidly I felt the air move past my cheek when the barber-chair part blurred past my head. I'd never seen anything so fast when cutting trees.
I was pretty solemn as I looked at the stump and realized how it happened. Now, I make a notch. Haven't had the same problem since. To heck with the time to cut the notch, I burn the piece anyway.
Then, after maybe fifteen years, I had one barber chair so rapidly I felt the air move past my cheek when the barber-chair part blurred past my head. I'd never seen anything so fast when cutting trees.
I was pretty solemn as I looked at the stump and realized how it happened. Now, I make a notch. Haven't had the same problem since. To heck with the time to cut the notch, I burn the piece anyway.
Oh. Thats good info then.
