Firewood Processor To Build or Not To Build

[Mr Good Wood]

I have been reading the threads on firewood processors and I am debating on building one that combines the best of the cord king and multiteck processor. My question is if I build it what is the market like for people that would like to have their logs processed. I know of one guy in my area (Northwest, Oh) that has a Timer wolf processor and he is charging $100 an hour and putting out 1.5 cords of wood and hour and half of it need split again. If you were a firewood guy would you pay that? I know I would not. But I am thinking of I building one because I need it for myself and I am thinking I could run it for other people too. Aside from the number above can anyone give me the going rate that they know of if you were to have someone come out and run a processor on an hourly basis. I'm thinking if you charge 100 an hr and can process at least 3 full cord and hr people would pay. It takes me about 3 hrs to cut/ split a cord so at 3 cord an hr that's $33 a cord. if you had to hire someone for $10 hr at 3 hr per cord well.. Plus the faster you process it the more dry time, the better. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts seeing that there is no true and exact way to test the market.

 

[Mike Van]

What works in New England may not in Ohio, same as the south. Prices really vary with location, you need to research a 50 or 100 mile radius of where you are, not where we are. 100/hr for 1.5 cord? When I was younger, I could do that with a maul, didn't need a processor. That guy must be the slowest operator in the world. You need a lot of nice size straight logs [and a machine to load them] to keep a processor making money. Moving & setup fee? Mileage charge? You may have to make two trips where the work is, one with the processor, and one with the skidsteer [or whatever you'll load it with. Big investment, keep digging for info before you jump in and wind up :censored:

 

[Wood Doctor]

Welcome aboard. Gald to see you are looking into this. Here's the BL of what you asked:

"Aside from the number above can anyone give me the going rate that they know of if you were to have someone come out and run a processor on an hourly basis."
---------------
Minimum wage has now been jacked up by the government to $7.25 per hour in most states. An operator would want at least $10 per hour, and perhaps $15 per hour is more realistic unless he's retired, independently wealthy, and wants to run the equipment for a hobby in order to get some exercise.

You can rarely sell a cord of wood that will be used for fuel to heat a building for more than $300, even if split, seasoned dry, delivered, and stacked. So, work the numbers backwards from there.

If you want to make $1 million selling firewood, I recommend that you start with $2 million.

 

[blackdogon57]

My real cost to run my processor is close $40-50 per cord including interest, ammortization, labor, fuel, maintenence, and all that good stuff. I would gladly pay 30-40 per cord (not by the hour - ever ) for for someone to come in and do all the work.

 

[Mr Good Wood]

Blackdogon57

Let me ask you this if you did not have a processor what would you realistically be willing to pay on a per cord basis? In my area the price per cord ranges from 150-250 so but 175-200 will cover what most people. So with that in mind shoot me a per cord number. What are the prices for a cord of wood in your area? Do you run your processor for other people that sell wood? You charge 40-50 per cord you say. As for the 7.25 min wage if you know someone that will cut and split wood for that PLEASE send them my way, at that price I wont have to build a processor. Also the surcharges are noted to, mileage, set-up ect

Again just trying to get an idea of the market.

IF YOU HAVE A PROCESSOR ANYONE, WHAT ARE YOU CHAGRINING OTHERS AND ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS WOOD SALE GUYS OR HOMEOWNERS THAT WANT TO GET A COUPLE YEARS AHEAD ON THE FIREWOOD.

Any info very much appreciated.

 

[redprospector]

Blackdogon57

Let me ask you this if you did not have a processor what would you realistically be willing to pay on a per cord basis? In my area the price per cord ranges from 150-250 so but 175-200 will cover what most people. So with that in mind shoot me a per cord number. What are the prices for a cord of wood in your area? Do you run your processor for other people that sell wood? You charge 40-50 per cord you say. As for the 7.25 min wage if you know someone that will cut and split wood for that PLEASE send them my way, at that price I wont have to build a processor. Also the surcharges are noted to, mileage, set-up ect

Again just trying to get an idea of the market.

IF YOU HAVE A PROCESSOR ANYONE, WHAT ARE YOU CHAGRINING OTHERS AND ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS WOOD SALE GUYS OR HOMEOWNERS THAT WANT TO GET A COUPLE YEARS AHEAD ON THE FIREWOOD.

Any info very much appreciated.

In my experience, firewood dealers are tight wads. They have to be, it's the nature of the business. Of corse there are some that just can't seem to deal with numbers very well.
I processed some last year for a firewood dealer here, and since he's a friend & I buy some saws from him at just over his cost, I only charged him $40 a cord. Which was entirely too much evidently. So now I process my own wood and will sell to the public in direct competition with him.
Now this is softwood so prices are low compared to hardwood. But he gives $45 a cord for logs delivered to his yard. He will also give $100 a cord for processed wood delivered to his yard. Hmmm, I can get $45 a cord for my logs delivered to him, and then get $40 for processing it at his yard, that's $85 a cord. Or I can process it on the job site, and deliver it for $100 a cord. Sounds like an extra $15 a cord in my pocket to me.
He seems to think that he can pay 4 guy's to cut the wood with a chainsaw, and split it with his 20 ton splitters for less than $40 a cord. I figure those 4 guys are going to have to put out over 2 cords an hour to do that.

The moral to this long winded story is that; You never know what you can do in your area untill you get out and talk to the firewood dealers around you. You may run into some who think it's a great deal, or you may run into none who think it's a good deal.
If you decide to build a processor, plan on processing your own logs to sell firewood. Then if you get to process someone elses logs it can be a bonus, and if you don't get to it's no big loss.

Andy

 

[leon]

firewood ho hum

I have been reading the threads on firewood processors and I am debating on building one that combines the best of the cord king and multiteck processor. My question is if I build it what is the market like for people that would like to have their logs processed. I know of one guy in my area (Northwest, Oh) that has a Timer wolf processor and he is charging $100 an hour and putting out 1.5 cords of wood and hour and half of it need split again. If you were a firewood guy would you pay that? I know I would not. But I am thinking of I building one because I need it for myself and I am thinking I could run it for other people too. Aside from the number above can anyone give me the going rate that they know of if you were to have someone come out and run a processor on an hourly basis. I'm thinking if you charge 100 an hr and can process at least 3 full cord and hr people would pay. It takes me about 3 hrs to cut/ split a cord so at 3 cord an hr that's $33 a cord. if you had to hire someone for $10 hr at 3 hr per cord well.. Plus the faster you process it the more dry time, the better. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts seeing that there is no true and exact way to test the market.

You had better step back a few paces and listen closely to what I am going to tell you regarding your desire to build a firewood processor combining
the features of the two machines you have mentioned and these words are:


PATENT INFRINGEMENT, and unless you want to spend a lot of time in court and be sued for copying their machinery.

And dont think for a minute that they-Cord King and Multitek will not come looking for you and serve you with papers informing you of their intent to sue you in regard to your building a firewood processor.


If you look at what red prospector has it is a Chomper which is very simple and reliable machine. The smallest unit that folks a Rainer Hydraulics builds and offers for sale is one that is powered by a farm tractor and attached to the three point hitch of the tractor.


And they have been building the chomper models for a long time.


leon

 

[RAMROD48]

I never once saw where it said he was going to build them for sale....only for his use...

no copyright infringement there I don't believe....

But I do agree with the 1 million/2 million comment!

 

[komatsuvarna]

I never once saw where it said he was going to build them for sale....only for his use...

no copyright infringement there I don't believe....

But I do agree with the 1 million/2 million comment!

:agree2::agree2: Nothing would be said for using it for his on use. What could they do anyway if he did want to start building processors and selling them. As long as its not a direct copy, who cares. Thats like john deere sueing kubota for making a tractor.

 

[leon]

fire wood

Unfortunately copying a design is also patent or copright infringement in the eyes of patent attorneys.

And until the life of the patent is exhausted if maintenance fees are paid when they are due its still theft of the patent holders patent.

And as I have had a patent granted recently I am aware of the required issues for a patent :deadhorse:

 

[Mr Good Wood]

Yea i am not going to build and sell them I just want to build one for my self potentially. I just think that each has features that are good and some that are bad and I have ideas of my own that are better than all of them and that is why I want to build rather than buy. Not to mention the 105k to 123k price tag.

 

[Mr Good Wood]

Just out of curiosity how long would you say on average if takes a yall (one guy ) to cut/split a cord o wood if the logs are already there for you? (not with a processor) I'm just trying to pick out a potential price point to charge others once I build a processor. Ideally I would rather run a processor for others more than for myself, but I know I have to start somewhere.

 

[leon]

fire wood

Yea i am not going to build and sell them I just want to build one for my self potentially. I just think that each has features that are good and some that are bad and I have ideas of my own that are better than all of them and that is why I want to build rather than buy. Not to mention the 105k to 123k price tag.

You do not own these features cord king and multitek do.

And you need to do a patent search to see if these improvements already exist in preceding patents.



I do not want to see you go to court thats why I have telling you this!!!


The smallest chomper that is tractor powered will produce more firewood than with all the manual handling and rehandling as it has a winch to bring the logs to the processor.

Buying the smallest timberwolf log splitter with a table grate, log lift, and adjustable wedge and the smallest chomper new will cost you less money.

There is a lot of used tractor iron and many people sell their old chompers to buy bigger ones and they are a lot less wor due to the simpler more efficient design.

 

[Curlycherry1]

I never once saw where it said he was going to build them for sale....only for his use...

no copyright infringement there I don't believe....

But I do agree with the 1 million/2 million comment!

Not true. You cannot copy an idea and make any money off of it, that includes using a machine idea and then selling products made off that machine.

Also the firewood processor manufacturing guys travel the country selling their products and they are well tapped into the saw shops and stuff, and if they get wind of a unit that uses their features, they will find out about it and come after that person. It has been done many times. Call a place like Hud-Son Machinery up in Barneveld, NY, they will be able to tell you of some of the cases they have seen. They are not involved, but they sure do know the firewood processor history and who sued who.

 

[Mr Good Wood]

How can multi-teck have a saw blade to cut the logs like the cord king then. How can all the other processors use chainsaw cutoff like many of them do? I appreciate your concern but the argument make no logical sense. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[2FatGuys]

While it MAY be possible for a company to persue a patent infringement against an individual that mimicks a feature of a design for personal use, it makes ZERO financial sense to do so. Most lawsuits over patent infringement are to recover "damages". There are no recoverable damages on a "one off" copy of a design not produced for sale. There is some arguement that income could be derived from the sale of a processing service or from the sale of firewood produced. But there is in no way enough production from a single unit to justify costly legal action.

As far as asking about using a circular blade to crosscut wood... that's been done for well over 100 years, in one form or another. Prosecuting someone for copying a technology that was copied from someone else would be tough. Hydraulic bar saws preceed firewood processors by a few decades as well. Theses processors are using "common knowledge technology" on their machines. Unless you copied exact designs or reverse-engineered proprietary components, I don't see where you'd be in any REAL danger.

 

[Curlycherry1]

How can multi-teck have a saw blade to cut the logs like the cord king then. How can all the other processors use chainsaw cutoff like many of them do? I appreciate your concern but the argument make no logical sense. Correct me if I am wrong.

A saw blade to cut logs is not propreitary. The roller on a Timberwolf that holds the wood down and helps advance the log, that is proprietary and covered by a patent. A patent that Timberwolf has vigorously defends.

If the idea is new to the world and offers an improvement in the known existing technology, then it can be patented and defended by the patent holder. Once a patent expires (ie hydraulic chainsaws, saw blades, etc) then those can be used by anyone.

So in answer to your question, the saw can be used by anyone, but put a top roller on the machine and Timberwolf will come calling. They also have some other stuff patented but I cannot find my saved links to their patents right now. I'll dig them out.

BTW I hold 8 patents and have seen coworkers defend their ideas in court. The company I work for got $270 million in damages and penalties from a company that infringed on our patents.

 

[leon]

wood

Thank you curly cherry for adding proofs< I just do not want to see this individual get into legal trouble as these companies have very deep pockets and legal representation on annual retainers which is enough to cause anyone a lot of issues which will effect them for their entire lives as it ruins their credit standing.


No and no,


its called a license to manufacture their product and if you have not obtained a license to manufacture all or any part of their design you will be in for a lot of issues.

They have deeper pockets than you- just look at what Monsanto did to the poor fellow who made his living by cleaning seed for his neighbors as they sued him for using thier GMO corn with out a license and as he only had three acres to his name a home and one seed cleaner and no financial ability to defend him self and he lost everything-

look at last weeks frontline episode about food and you will see.

 

[Mr Good Wood]

Hide your assets and claim broke? lol

 

[Curlycherry1]

Ok, so here is another angle to idea usage: ethics.

So is it ok for China to copy ideas from our patents and then use them to make counterfit products? Heck no.

So why is it ok for a single guy in his shop to steal (yes I said and meant steal) the ideas of someone that had the briallance to come up with the idea? Who cares right, it is only one guy with a welder and a workshop, how much harm can he do? But what if every guy with a welder started to use the inventor's ideas? Pretty soon there would be no customers for the original inventor to sell his products to. Where would we all be then? Stealing an invention to make 1 copy or 10,000 is the same, it is still stealing an invention.

<....Curlycherry backs away with his gas can and waits for responses>

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