First Graduate

[buck futter]

I am the first sucessful graduate of "Gypo loggers school for saucy saws"

I have had it together for a few days but today was the first day I was able to put it in any wood. I have recently bought a brand new 359 the saw was just starting to get broken in, truthfully I felt its stock performance even with a mild muffler mod. I also had a 357xp basket case with a good jug and piston. Out came my dremels, I used a spiral bit that looks similar to a end mill for the rough work and sand paper on a cut off bolt for the finishing touches. What really helped is I have a flexible shaft that is 3-4' that attaches to the dremel. Before I started I cleaned the jug and piston in the parts washer and used a brass brush to loosen some of the grime on the outside. Next I measured every thing out with my brown & sharp calipers w/ DRO. The DRO came in very handy if you have access. When I started I didn't have a old jug around so I tested different bits and methods on the outside of the jugs handle mount. I Guess in reality this was my practice grind. The intake of the jug was horrible for casting flaws, I cleaned up the flaws and took 25 thousands off the top of the intake and 40 off the bottom. I left the top of the transfers alone, they looked clean and I don't think I could have duplicated the shape, the bottom was a mess with flaw's so I cleaned them up and smoothed them a little. The exhaust I moved the top up 40 thousands and smoothed it all out. I can see why everone emphasizes throwing a radius on the ports after your done because they were quite sharp. when I was done they felt better than the factory ports. I probably should have put in a brand new ring just because I was in there but I was excited to give this a shot. I had taken a squish reading of .043 before I tore every thing down and the base gasket measured .018 I removed it and used permatex anerobic gasket maker, very close to loctite 515 or 518.

The saw starts better now I believe due to the increased compression. I had to tweak the low side of the carb out a little and the high side needed about 1/8-1/4 of a turn out. She runs like a raped ape righ now, I am very impressed with this saw and I wish I had put in a brand new ring. I know a pro could have gotten more out of the pig but I am very happy with what I have acomplished and how this monster performs now.
For as much as John Lambert jokes around he has given me serious valuable information on how to "Smarten up my saw" I would like to thank him and all of those that have helped him learn. (Namely Yoda out west and the real deal sawed off runt.) No John not you. Hahaha
I am so pleased with my results I wish I had more saw to tweak. Maybe this is the next level of getting sucked in. I do believe as soon as my dad runs my saw I will be doing some work for him.




Lucky

Aka Buck

 

[vharrison2]

The Gip will be proud!

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hey Lucky, glad to hear it!
Judging by all the pm's I am receiving it looks like several members have gotten significant gains as well from a few basic mods to their saws.
I lucked out today and picked up a 268 basket case and put a 272 barrel and piston on it!
After putting together all it needs is a coil. When I replace that I will time it then do the mods and time it again.
The coil on the 266 is different so that won't fit.
Does Husky have a lifetime warranty on coils?
Anyway, here's my 272 hybrid.
John

 

[superman_36]

looks like a rescue saw with the front spike plate
is that what it was

 

[Gypo Logger]

looks like a rescue saw with the front spike plate
is that what it was

Most of the Huskys come with the spikeless bumper option. Used mostly for slashing brush and juvenile tree spacing where dawgs would be a detriment
John

 

[Mr.]

Congrats on the first saw mod lucky 1. Now it's downhill from here.

Gypo if the 272 outperforms the 372 let us know we'll have to reposture .

We are definately going to have a novice ported 372 class at a GTG hopefully we will have time in MI.

I have a handfiler that's going to try to get me up to speed before then so I might even run my own chain against Gypo and woodsjunkie.

Fred

 

[buck futter]

Thanks Fred,
The biggest thing is now that I've seen the improvement I would like to really understand the interaction between the ports and what would maximize a saw. I was originally scared of putting a grinder to a jug and have it come out nonuniform, but all that it takes is practice and patience. I would contemplate paying a small amount of money to get the "magic engineered" numbers that the builders have. It would be like buying a pattern or blueprint to build a garage. I don't believe we will ever see that but it would be nice. Are there any shareware/freeware versions of the porting programs?

Fred you seem to be sandbagging some chainsaw information do you have any tips you would like to share?


Lucky

 

[Crofter]

The first 10 % gain in power ( additional to 20 - 25% for muffler mod ) is fairly easy to get without burning any bridges. I think that when you start going after the next 15% is when you can get into trouble and where you perhaps start making some tradeoffs in dependability. If you have some figures for duration that you are absolutely sure worked well it helps. What duration numbers dont tell is the width of the ports and where the metal was removed to make the changes in timing. Some things like width of piston skirt and max width of intake port, position of ring gap positioning pins etc., are edge of the cliff points that are necessary to be wary of. You will likely have to remove metal from the bottom of the jug as well as losing the base gasket and then you may have to remove metal from either under side of head or top of piston to maintain safe minimum squish. A lot of saws will need additional transfer passages ground into the jug or added on the outside. That is where it is harder to depend on "getting lucky".

 

[Gypo Logger]

Frank, your implication that a 2 cycle engine is so efficient in the first place that minute changes to the port timing is a black art is simply not true.
All we are suggesting here is to make very slight changes to the duration of the saw, in other words blending things in to increase the flow, reduce heat and increase power.
If you are having the troubles you are alluding to, maybe take it easy on your figures. In other words, if your saws are running worse then stock then maybe you should be a bit more conservative.
Could you be basing your opinion on another builder across the border who thought that if some was good then more was better when he first started to build saws?
Case in point: The stock figures of the 346 measureing from the top edge of the cumbuststion chamber are as follows:
Intake 130 degrees 50 mm
Exhaust 156 degrees 23.7 mm
Transfers 122 degrees 27.5 mm
The modified 346 that I got from Russ so I could have the casing as it was an XPG has the following figures:
Intake 54 mm
Exhaust 19 mm
Transfers 24 mm
Now if we compare the figures, we can see that the figures used were not judicious in fact, both the exhaust and transfers were raised at least 2-3 mm more then what they should have been. Did the saw still run? Sure it did!
Did it run better then stock? Maybe marginaly.
My point is that even when the figures are drasticly wrong the saw will still run, so if we are conservative we will definately be in the ballpark.
Frank, help us out here, you can't stop these guys from wanting to build their own motors.
John

 

[Gearhead1]

Regarding "Gypo's school", do all the students pose naked for their class picture, or is that only the founder and namesake?

 

[Crofter]

All we are suggesting here is to make very slight changes to the duration of the saw, in other words blending things in to increase the flow, reduce heat and increase power.

Good plan, emphasize "very slight"

If you are having the troubles you are alluding to, maybe take it easy on your figures. In other words, if your saws are running worse then stock then maybe you should be a bit more conservative.

Haven't had those troubles but good advice.

Now if we compare the figures, we can see that the figures used were not judicious in fact, both the exhaust and transfers were raised at least 2-3 mm more then what they should have been.

Make sure the figures are workable, BS is out there.

My point is that even when the figures are drasticly wrong the saw will still run, so if we are conservative we will definately be in the ballpark.

Conservative is right, but drastically wrong moves have indeed resulted in a saw that will run but not well enough to work.

Frank, help us out here, you can't stop these guys from wanting to build their own motors.

I agree, and I think a bit of understanding and caution is what will enable them to size up a piece of advice and be able to better evaluate it. 10% gain in addition to muffler mods is quite do able. If you want 25% or more I think it is going to take you into areas that need a decent understanding of some very real pitfalls. I guess there are different approaches. I prefer to be a bit more analytical rather than use the trial and error method. To some I guess that shows a lack of the spirit of adventure! Different strokes I guess.


Learn from others mistakes, you wont live long enough to make them all yourself!

 

[MS-310]

Gypo and lucky1

I would like to try that out on my ms-310 I did the muffler mod and i like to mod it just for fun. can you guys help? I have the tools and have done lots of 4cycle porting, but i can see that 2cycles are alot harder. Thanks
Jack

 

[MS-310]

well I got an old small husky i mite try first, So any info would help. I would need to know how mush of what needs to be removed and if ther is some reading on this. thanks again guys Jack

 

[Mr.]

Lucky here's my .02,

First one needs to read lots of two stroke theory books and be filled with fools courage to the point they will build a radical saw.

Then build that saw. To all your knowledge and any borrowed knowledge you can find. When the saw lays down. Put the saw in a spot of prominence in your garage. Keep the degree wheel and follow me.

The saw runs on precentage numbers, so take the degree wheel and zero it in. Port lightly, If it should take an hour on a port take two. The elementary lesson is make the port look like it did stock when you are done. Good arcs and everything radiused. Less is more on a work saw and in most cases on a good competition saw.

Fred

 

[timberwolf]

Port lightly, If it should take an hour on a port take two. The elementary lesson is make the port look like it did stock when you are done. Good arcs and everything radiused.

Sounds like Zen.

I agree all the reading is good, but with knowledge comes power, power used without discretion is chaotic at best.

I think there needs to be clear vision of what you are trying to achieve. You just cant start off grinding here and there and moving things around expecting it all to work out so that all variables come together and interact positively rather than canceling each other out or causing interference. Even though each step (change)in isolation would in theroy give a gain, the sum of all the changes may = 0 or worse. Best to decide where your going before packing your bags.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Brian, anyone can point the roads to failure, but lets not dwell on failure but rather success. A degree of common sense is worth a great deal more than a degree on the wall.
I have already pointed out that even someone with Turret's Syndrome can port a saw and make it run, IE., note the figures above.
We have already left the naysayers and hecklers in the dust so lets see what positive things one can offer about motors.
John

 

[Mr.]

And the world is Zen.


Fred

 

[timberwolf]

I don't think I am nay saying or pointing out the flaws. John, I would say you have pointed out some things that will make saws cut faster, But how do we bring these different ideas together to work in harmony?

From my own experiences in trying to evolve a saw, I found that Idea had some road blocks, you do one thing, then another, then when you try to do something else you find the the first or second thing you did keeps the third from working or even being possible. Raise the intake a bit you may gain, shave some of the piston, has the potential for gains, the go to drop the jug and you can now look right through from the exhaust to the carb, Doh! :censored:

On the other hand if you had an idea of where you wanted to end up the changes could be made in such a way to avoide this kind of problem.

 

[wagonwheeler]

A degree of common sense is worth a great deal more than a degree on the wall.

Depends on how 'common' and the degree... Neither extreme is pleasant in it's purest form...but both can have tremendous merit.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

I don't think I am nay saying or pointing out the flaws. John, I would say you have pointed out some things that will make saws cut faster, But how do we bring these different ideas together to work in harmony?

From my own experiences in trying to evolve a saw, I found that Idea had some road blocks, you do one thing, then another, then when you try to do something else you find the the first or second thing you did keeps the third from working or even being possible. Raise the intake a bit you may gain, shave some of the piston, has the potential for gains, the go to drop the jug and you can now look right through from the exhaust to the carb, Doh! :censored:

On the other hand if you had an idea of where you wanted to end up the changes could be made in such a way to avoide this kind of problem.

A classic example of over thinking. The things that Gypo has done to his barrels are "NOT" a problem! Raise the exhaust slighty(depending on the timing)...raise the transfers slighty...lower the intake slightly(Not Raise as you say) and then widen the ports slightly. All these things will work in harmony and have been proven to make a work saw run better. Isn't time for you to go back and check your Zen thread! Hahahahaha!