flatsawn vs quartersawn

[slabmaster]

When drying lumber,which boards crack the easiest, flatsawn or quartersawn.And what one cracks the easiest from humitity changes?What have you found to be the case?Especually when sliced thin. I'm not going to tell you what i think yet because i want to see others view on this subject.opcorn:

 

[oldsaw]

You will have more issues of twisting a warping with flatsawn. You will have the least problem with quartersawn, and riftsawn will split the difference. If you haven't sealed the ends of the boards, they will all crack and split on the ends.

When working with thin wood, start thicker and work it down. Drying thin wood is going to be more species specific IMHO.

Mark

 

[timberwolf]

Quater sawn is more stable and tends not to cup or pull.

But cracks easy down the length of the board esp in ring porous woods that have distinct summer and winter wood.

 

[slabmaster]

I just asking about cracking.Nothin else,such as warping or bending or cupping,that's a totaly different subject.Just cracking from humidity changes throughout it's life after milled thin or planed. Thanks, Mark

 

[woodshop]

I just asking about cracking.Nothin else,such as warping or bending or cupping,that's a totaly different subject.Just cracking from humidity changes throughout it's life after milled thin or planed. Thanks, Mark

"warping bending or cupping" is really not a different subject than "just cracking"... they all happen because wood is hygroscopic, it gains and loses moisture as the relative humidity changes, and consequently swells and shrinks accordingly. That swelling and shrinking causes the warping, bending, cupping and cracking as some parts of the board swell or shrink more or faster than other parts. As was said, quartersawn and riftsawn boards don't twist or cup as bad as flatsawn. If by "cracking" you mean cracks appear in the end of the boards, that happens no matter how you saw the boards as boards lose moisture faster from uncoated ends than anywhere else, and thus that end few inches shrink as moisture is lost, and thus cracks appear.

 

[slabmaster]

"warping bending or cupping" is really not a different subject than "just cracking"... they all happen because wood is hygroscopic, it gains and loses moisture as the relative humidity changes, and consequently swells and shrinks accordingly. That swelling and shrinking causes the warping, bending, cupping and cracking as some parts of the board swell or shrink more or faster than other parts. As was said, quartersawn and riftsawn boards don't twist or cup as bad as flatsawn. If by "cracking" you mean cracks appear in the end of the boards, that happens no matter how you saw the boards as boards lose moisture faster from uncoated ends than anywhere else, and thus that end few inches shrink as moisture is lost, and thus cracks appear.

Hi Woodshop,Maby you misunderstood what i was asking.There is a big difference between a cracked board and a cupped or twisted one which i'm not concerned with as that can be taken out when surfaced.And i wasn't talking about cracks in the end grain.Just interested in which is more prone to cracking when thin even after seasoning,flat or quartered.Mark

 

[slabmaster]

Ther seems to be alot of confusion with this post.Let me put this another way.Which wood takes in and releases moisture the fastest through it's lifetime from start to finish,flatsawn or quarter sawn boards? Thanks Again,Mark

 

[RPM]

I just asking about cracking.Nothin else,such as warping or bending or cupping,that's a totaly different subject.Just cracking from humidity changes throughout it's life after milled thin or planed. Thanks, Mark

I guess I'd look at this way....if I made a piece of furniture- say a chest of drawers and made everything out of soild wood (no plywood) and didn't allow for the case work to be able to move with seasonal moisture changes - then almost any species would crack or split. So if you are a glue and mechanical faster freak then stuff will break. And as mentioned, quatersawn and rifesawn are dimensionally more stable with changes in moisture than flatsawn or face grained lumber.

There was a post yesterday with a link to the USFS Wood Handbook....find it and read Chp 3. and you will answer your own question...specifically Table 3.5 for shrinkage %.

 

[RPM]

I guess I'd look at this way....if I made a piece of furniture- say a chest of drawers and made everything out of soild wood (no plywood) and didn't allow for the case work to be able to move with seasonal moisture changes - then almost any species would crack or split. So if you are a glue and mechanical faster freak then stuff will break. And as mentioned, quatersawn and rifesawn are dimensionally more stable with changes in moisture than flatsawn or face grained lumber.

There was a post yesterday with a link to the USFS Wood Handbook....find it and read Chp 3. and you will answer your own question...specifically Table 3.5 for shrinkage %.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

 

[woodshop]

Thanks RPM... that's such a fascinating handbook, I could spend hours going over the formulas and looking at lists of wood. Example, I think it's interesting how little butternut shrinks from green to dry compared to some other common wood. I milled about 150bd ft of that few years ago but havn't used much in the shop yet. Saving it for a special project like a shaker table.

 

[RPM]

Thanks RPM... that's such a fascinating handbook, I could spend hours going over the formulas and looking at lists of wood. Example, I think it's interesting how little butternut shrinks from green to dry compared to some other common wood. I milled about 150bd ft of that few years ago but havn't used much in the shop yet. Saving it for a special project like a shaker table.

Hey woodshop.....glad I was able to contribute to an idle afternoon of wood work day dreaming.

 

[MJR]

Which wood takes in and releases moisture the fastest through it's lifetime from start to finish,flatsawn or quarter sawn boards? Thanks Again,Mark


I’ll bite – If there is a difference it must be small. I think it matters more on the tree. For example, I helped mill some cherry that was growing around a swampy area and some cherry that was growing up the hill from the swamp area. The swamp cherry was dark and beautiful and the hill tress looked like normal up state NY cherry. But if you flat saw and quarter saw some boards from the same log “I guess” the flat saw boards would dry a little faster. A good fighting post would be – Who honestly thinks it takes a full year to air dry a board. Good luck to you Mark.

 

[slabmaster]

Which wood takes in and releases moisture the fastest through it's lifetime from start to finish,flatsawn or quarter sawn boards? Thanks Again,Mark


I’ll bite – If there is a difference it must be small. I think it matters more on the tree. For example, I helped mill some cherry that was growing around a swampy area and some cherry that was growing up the hill from the swamp area. The swamp cherry was dark and beautiful and the hill tress looked like normal up state NY cherry. But if you flat saw and quarter saw some boards from the same log “I guess” the flat saw boards would dry a little faster. A good fighting post would be – Who honestly thinks it takes a full year to air dry a board. Good luck to you Mark.

Thanks, RPM for the responce.I am a biology major and have studied this subject as it helps me in building my acoustic guitar boxes which are glued up solid of course.No allowance for movement there after built.The cracking issue is ALL about the biology of the wood.And it is easier for the moisture to evaporate when the rings are along the shortest axis.This is seen MORE frequently in Quartersawn lumber.Quartersawn has less flexability than flatsawn.Have you noticed the effects of a log ( say poplar) when it's laying in a pile to be milled.The cracks that run from the pith to the outer edge,Always run along RAYS.THis is a phenomenon of biology and the differentiation of these cell,which are paramount in CODIT (compartmentalization of decay).

 

[RPM]

Thanks, RPM for the responce.I am a biology major and have studied this subject as it helps me in building my acoustic guitar boxes which are glued up solid of course.No allowance for movement there after built.The cracking issue is ALL about the biology of the wood.And it is easier for the moisture to evaporate when the rings are along the shortest axis.This is seen MORE frequently in Quartersawn lumber.Quartersawn has less flexability than flatsawn.Have you noticed the effects of a log ( say poplar) when it's laying in a pile to be milled.The cracks that run from the pith to the outer edge,Always run along RAYS.THis is a phenomenon of biology and the differentiation of these cell,which are paramount in CODIT (compartmentalization of decay).

Hi slabmaster....I've have a biology degree too, as well as a forestry degree to boot. Its funny I remember doing lots of "wood properties" type courses and surprisingly don't remember a whole lot from them - it has been almost 20 years. I still have all my books and course notes so you've given me a mission to do some reading over the holidays. School would be way more interesting in particular areas of study now, what with all the experience and interests one gathers over time.

My experience with splitting and checking of wood (based strictly on personal experience and observation) is based almost 100% on softwoods. Quartersawn Douglas-fir, Western red cedar, Yellow cedar and Stitka / Engelmann spruce have little to no movement when properly seasoned. I used to cut cedar shake blocks and cants on Vancouver Island and we were always on the hunt for music or "tone" wood. There were a few buyers who supplied music wood to guitar makers. We would cut them to a 32" block and had to meet certain criteria with regardes to wood grain. I know others who have cut music wood from Doug-fir and spruce as well.

I can appreciate that in making a guitar that you cannot design joints, etc that will allow for seasonal moisture changes, so wood choice is obviously an important decision......I understand your original question now.

 

[prickettwood]

Hi slabmaster, I have been drying for awhile, And their is many opiions on drying different species. and most have good reason. But I always like to refere back to USDA manuels for those answer, And in FPL-GTR-118 Drying Hardwood Lumber Page 10, It stated that quartersawn peices remain flat where when used where MC fluctuates, Quartersawn lumbber cracks(checks) less becouse it shrinks more in thickness then in width. BUt if you refere to the USDA Wood Handbook Page 40, It states as an advantage, It does not allow liquids to pass through readily in some species, Which I found in sycamore, It makes it more difficult to dry, do to tendency to be spotty with the MC. BUt I don't have any degrees.
Matt