Getting an Alaskan mill rails parallel

[1947wdx]

Howdy,

I thought I would throw this out there to see what those with more experience have to say. I've searched a bit and read the CS milling sticky, but so far haven't found what I need. (It's probably here, just haven't found it yet... )

I have an Alaskan mill I purchased used this summer along with a Husky 3120. I've been experimenting on some pine logs left over from some work I had done on my land last winter. I'm not new to chainsaws, but fairly new to milling myself. (My father milled most of the lumber for a 30x40 barn using something equivalent to the Granburg mini-mill, but I was just a gofer at the time.)

Enough background on to the questions...

I've noticed the last couple of times I've used the mill that one rail seems to stick up a bit as I move through the wood. At first I thought I was doing something wrong and tried adjusting my procedure. Finally I placed it across what I believe is a fairly flat surface and sure enough it seems to have a bit of a twist such that it rocks back and forth.

I've tried loosening up all the nuts and insuring both rails are flat on the surface and then slowly tightening things back up checking all the time for "flatness". So far without luck as it always seems to twist back to the same shape.

Are there any tricks to getting these mills flat? I seem be able to produce fairly flat boards as long as I keep the leading edge on the log all the way across. (The back corner farthest away from the saw is up about 1/8 of an inch or so in this case.)

I am however having issues keeping the the ends of the boards parallel. Up till noticing this I put it down to lack of technique, now I'm not sure. (Probably still partially my technique...) It's easier on wide or long logs, but on short (5 to 6 feet) after about 4 cuts or so there is a definite curve end to end.

Sorry, no pic's at this time, I forgot the camera this weekend.

Thanks in advance, and if there is a thread on this already, my apologies...

Tony P.

 

[BobL]

If the plane described by the bar and the plane described by the mill rails are parallel and the boards still have milled faces that are not parallel then that is usually a bar and/or chain problem.

If the mill is twisted before you start then it can be many different things.
The most likely possibilities are
1) the uprights are slightly bent or
2) the clamps holding the uprights are out of whack usually twisted relative to each other.
3) the rails or cross pieces are bent or twisted relative to each other

All of the above can happen if the mill has been dropped or maltreated in other ways or even just wear and tear and constant vibe can do enough to cause this problem. Are there any obvious places on the mill showing wear - if so these are what should be attended to? Has the mill been continually bashed into the side of the log - this is pretty common with a big saw.

1) is a PITA to fudge, particularly if you want to cut different thicknesses, I recommend new uprights if this happens.

2) If the bar clamps are twisted you can shim one side of a bar clamp. If it only manifests itself when tightened then measure the difference when tightened and shim up according. Be aware that this is not an ideal solution, if the shim comes loose during the cut your chain could end up cutting bar clamp bolt. The best solution is to straighten the bar clamps.

3) If the rails are bent I suggest a complete replacement. If the rails are straight but are twisted relative to each other that says the cross pieces are at fault (bent or twisted), shimming like 2) can help but I would recommend replacing the cross pieces.

Even if you still start out dead straight a big saw like a 3120 can easily still bend a mill during it's cut and produce a dipping cut - this is usually a chain problem.

You could of course have al combination of all of the above.

How wide are your cuts?

 

[BlueRider]

If I understand your problem you have a granberg alaskan mill and without the bar bolted to the mill and without the up rights in place the mill will not sit on a flat surface.

The first thing I would do is check the aluminium guide rails to make sure they are straight. If they are not straight this could very well be the problem. I have a 48" granberg that is so old it has pat.pending on the castings rather than a pat. number. over the years with wear and tear my guide rails became warped and worn and I was having the same problem with the mill not sitting on a flat surface. In practice a mill with this problem will mill boards that have a slight twist and that twist will add up such that the bottom board of the log will be noticeable worse than the first.

as crazy as it sounds it is not that big of a problem as long as you stack the boards in on a flat set of blocks and in the same order they came off the log. I did this with very good results for many years. even at 2" thick the wood will move4 enough so that it will dry flat.

Of course the easiest solution is to buy new rails from granberg. I finaly did that a year an a half ago and wish I had done it 15 years ago.

 

[1947wdx]

If the plane described by the bar and the plane described by the mill rails are parallel and the boards still have milled faces that are not parallel then that is usually a bar and/or chain problem.

I don't think there is a bar/chain issue. The bar is fairly new, straight, and has very little wear. The chain is a new ripping chain from Bailieys. I'm not 100% sure there isn't an issue, and I'll check that out this weekend when I'm out there. (I live about 25 miles from where the wood, saws and such are.)

If the mill is twisted before you start then it can be many different things.
[...]

I went through a lot of what you mentioned, and things look good by themselves. I obviously have more checking to do... It was used when I bought it, and although I think I've taken fairly good care of it, you never know what happened to it prior to me...

How wide are your cuts?

They range from about 8 inches wide to about 24 inches. I'm looking at a different alternative for the rest of the smaller logs (logosol) the big Grandburg Alaskan is just too hard to handle for the smaller logs. (I could shorten it and put it on my 394, which I may do.)

 

[1947wdx]

If I understand your problem you have a granberg alaskan mill and without the bar bolted to the mill and without the up rights in place the mill will not sit on a flat surface.

The saw isn't in the mill but the uprights are in place. The rails look parallel and straight when placed side by side with nothing bolted to them. (I used a 4 foot level that I trust to be straight to check them.)

Of course the easiest solution is to buy new rails from granberg. I finaly did that a year an a half ago and wish I had done it 15 years ago.

I may end up doing that if I can find the right part that is warped. If not I may just spring for a new one. (Easier then buying parts one at a time till you replace most of it... )

Thanks for the info!!

 

[BobL]

I don't think there is a bar/chain issue. The bar is fairly new, straight, and has very little wear. The chain is a new ripping chain from Bailieys. I'm 100% sure there isn't an issue, and I'll check that out this weekend when I'm out there. (I live about 25 miles from where the wood, saws and such are.)

Bar and chain issues result from worn undressed bars, and chains that have longer cutters on one side than the other. If this was a problem you should also see it when cross cutting - ie would not cut straight. This does not sound like your problem

They range from about 8 inches wide to about 24 inches. I'm looking at a different alternative for the rest of the smaller logs (logosol) the big Grandburg Alaskan is just too hard to handle for the smaller logs. (I could shorten it and put it on my 394, which I may do.)

Yeah, 8" - I find I end up turning too much wood into sawdust with an alaskan on such small logs.

 

[1947wdx]

I don't think there is a bar/chain issue. ...I'm 100% sure there isn't an issue, and I'll check

Bar and chain issues result from worn undressed bars, and chains that have longer cutters on one side than the other. If this was a problem you should also see it when cross cutting - ie would not cut straight. This does not sound like your problem

Did I say "I'm 100% sure there isn't an issue" :bang: I intended to say "I'm not 100% sure there isn't an issue" (edited original...)

Yeah, 8" - I find I end up turning too much wood into sawdust with an alaskan on such small logs.

Most of the 8" logs are practice anyway, and I'll end up with either a 4x6 or 4x8 out of most of them. Maybe a few 8x8's out of the straighter ones...

The boards I'm getting out are at least 12" wide. I'm practicing on these pine logs to work the kinks out before moving on to hardwoods. I have a sugar maple that fell this summer. Most of it has already been cut up for firewood, but there is one section I would like to try to get some boards out of.

Thanks for all the info!!

 

[billstuewe]

I had the identical problem. My mill would rock back and forth and was obviously warped. When I loosened the bolts it would set flat but warp again as soon as I tightened the bolts back up. I Spoke with Eric Granberg and he gave me some things to check. Take the mill apart and check that the guide rails are straight and not twisted. He stated that rarely the mills get out with twisted rails. They appear to be straight but try this. Set the rail on a flat surface and balance winding sticks on top of each end. Step back and see if the rail has any twist in it. I could not notice any by eye but the winding sticks showed considerable twist. If you are not familure with the great woodworking tool called "winding sticks" check this out:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=53276&cat=1,41182

The twist in my rail was as apparent as in the illustration. I used two 2' levels for my winding sticks. (any two sticks will work as long as each sticks edges are paralyll). I emailed Eric with this information expecting to get replacements but heard nothing back so In desparation I took matters into my own hands. I clamped one end in a heavy vise and tightened the other in my 12" cressent wrench and put a cheater on it and carefully twisted it the opposite direction. There is a fair amount of springback and my advise is to take it slow. Check your progress often so that you do not over do it. I just left it in the vise and set the winding sticks back on until I hade it perfect. The mill now works great.
Bill

 

[1947wdx]

If you are not familure with the great woodworking tool called "winding sticks" ...

DOH! Winding sticks. I am familiar with them, but forgot about them while I was out in the woods cussin' at the mill when it warped back every time I tightened up the nuts...

so In desperation I took matters into my own hands. I clamped one end in a heavy vise and tightened the other in my 12" crescent wrench and put a cheater on it and carefully twisted it the opposite direction. There is a fair amount of spring-back and my advise is to take it slow. Check your progress often so that you do not over do it. I just left it in the vise and set the winding sticks back on until I had it perfect. The mill now works great.
Bill

Good idea. Hopefully mine will come out as well as yours did. (Heck I'm hoping it will be that easy! )

 

[BobL]

Winding Sticks

I also like using winding sticks because they are a simple low tech solution. An alternative to winding sticks is using a digital angle finder (DAF). I have 2, one in my home shop and one in my van for when I go milling to measure the twist in milling rails. DAF are also useful because they work in confined spaces that cannot easily accommodate winding sticks.

The fact that som mills seem to develop twisted rails supports my suspicion that the rails used some mills are too lightweight.

 

[billstuewe]

I had taken some pictures of my "problem" and could not find them yesterday--here they are:
The twisted mill--

caused by the twisted rail--

Anyway, when I "untwisted" the rail everything sat nice and flat. Eric had indicated that sometimes they had (rarely) recieved a bad batch of metal that had a twist in it.
After putting the mill back together I clamped the bar on it without saw or chain and put the level on the bar perpendicular to the mill and measured the distance from the bottom of the rail to the level on each side to make sure the plane of the bar is parallel to the plane of the rails--it was.

 

[HarryHarley]

Good to see the problem AND the solution. Nice job!!

 

[BobL]

I had taken some pictures of my "problem" and could not find them yesterday--here they are:
The twisted mill--

Wow, that is pretty bad, was that how the mill was as sold?

 

[billstuewe]

Yep, It was that way on my first cut--remember I had posted that the front part of the rail next to the tip was riding up so I tied an old hydrolic jack to that corner to keep it down (and un-be knownst to me the opposite corner under my elbow then raised up). Anyway you fussed at me that I had something out of wack because that should not be happening. Your words kept echoing in my ears until I finally figured out the problem. You must be a good coach.
I am still waiting for you promised trip to Texas----you and me could have a real good time chatting and talking shop---which brings up the question--what do you do with your wood? Here is an example of my extremes--My Mom kept saing to me,"You have all that wood up there, you need to make me a casket". So one day I did and my "Little" brother--the guy on the left. made the ironware. (At first it seemed kind of repulsive but as I got into it, it became an honor)_

 

[BobL]

Hi Bill, That sure is a nice casket. It's no where near as big as yours but last year I made the ashes casket for my FIL's ashes last year using some of my wood and some the wood from FILs shed.

I like making woodworking hand tools, Examples of what else I make are shown here

I have only had my big (BIL) mill since August of 2007 so just about all the big wood I have ever cut is still drying. Only a fraction of the wood I cut is mine. Stuff milled at the tree loppers yard is split 3 ways with the Owner and his son. Stuff I mill for other people is usually spilt and sometimes I just mill for the fun of it!

Before the BIL mill I used my first small steel alaskan. The reason I got into bigger milling was because I like making mills as much as for the timber. Since then I have made a beam mill and am thinking about another Alaskan although I am so busy at work for the next few months I probably won't get a start on it till next year.

 

[1947wdx]

Nice Work!

Nice work guys!

 

[820wards]

Hi Bill, That sure is a nice casket. It's no where near as big as yours but last year I made the ashes casket for my FIL's ashes last year using some of my wood and some the wood from FILs shed.

I like making woodworking hand tools, Examples of what else I make are shown here

I have only had my big (BIL) mill since August of 2007 so just about all the big wood I have ever cut is still drying. Only a fraction of the wood I cut is mine. Stuff milled at the tree loppers yard is split 3 ways with the Owner and his son. Stuff I mill for other people is usually spilt and sometimes I just mill for the fun of it!

Before the BIL mill I used my first small steel alaskan. The reason I got into bigger milling was because I like making mills as much as for the timber. Since then I have made a beam mill and am thinking about another Alaskan although I am so busy at work for the next few months I probably won't get a start on it till next year.

Bob,
Here is my first wood tool I made this past week. Not as beautiful as your tools. It's a draw knife I made from a horse shoe file. I first took the temper out of it by putting it in my BBQ with coals. After it cooled I ground down the teeth on the file and then cut the shape with my plasma cutter. I then put the basic edge on it and then tig welded the SS bolts on the ends. I then got the blade cherry red and then submerged the blade in oil. Ithen used my diamond stones to get the edge how I liked it. The handles are from the black Oak tree on my cabin property.

 

[BobL]

Nice job, I really like the handles. Are they dome nuts or nylocks on the ends?

Here's what I do when using files for WW blades. Unless they have lost their hardness the heat treatment needed is pretty simple. Because they are so hard they are then more brittle and so should really have the hardness reduced (ie temper them a bit). This also makes them safer to use, easier to form the cutting edge and easier to subsequently resharpen.

Tempering files can be done in most domestic oven by heating them at 500F for about 20 minutes (or even longer doesn't hurt). This drops the hardness to one more suited to WW use. If they are sanded back to clean metal they should come out a golden colour.

Another thing for blades that are likely to be subjected to shock during use (like chisels) and that is to grind away all the teeth. The reason for this is because the bottom of a tooth gullet is a potential start of a crack. Unless you use the draw knife with a chopping action you should be OK

Here's a draw knife I make last year from a file.

Here's a tool where the only wood is in the pencil.

 

[820wards]

Bob,

Nice job, I really like the handles. Are they dome nuts or nylocks on the ends?

** I used nylock nuts just because I had some, I buy them by the box.

Tempering files can be done in most domestic oven by heating them at 500F for about 20 minutes (or even longer doesn't hurt). This drops the hardness to one more suited to WW use. If they are sanded back to clean metal they should come out a golden colour.

** I used a welding touch with a big rose bud tip to get the file cherry red, then I dropped it in a pale of cold water.

Another thing for blades that are likely to be subjected to shock during use (like chisels) and that is to grind away all the teeth.

** I did grind down past the teeth on the edge of the file to good clear metal.

The reason for this is because the bottom of a tooth gullet is a potential start of a crack. Unless you use the draw knife with a chopping action you should be OK

** I will be using it primarily to de-bark small pine pole trees to make some small end tables for our deck at our cabin. I don't plan to be chopping any wood with it. I actually used it to de-bark the black oak limb I used to make the handles with and hasn't lost it's edge so far.

Question:
If I find that it doesn't keep it's edge, can I try putting it in the oven as you described to try putting hardness back in the metal. What do you use to quench your metal tools with, oil or water. A blacksmith friend was who told me to use water.

I like you knife and compass.

I have a wood lathe, so I guess the next set of handles I make I'll have to turn them on it.

TIA
jerry-

Here's a draw knife I make last year from a file.

Here's a tool where the only wood is in the pencil.

 

[BobL]

What do you use to quench your metal tools with, oil or water. A blacksmith friend was who told me to use water.

I don't harden and temper old files but I do harden and temper new tool steel which I buy in 18 or 36" long pieces from Enco in the USA.

The best quenching liquid is determined by the type of tool steel. Usually I buy O1 tool steel which is Oil (Canola) quenched. I also have some small pieces of W1 (Water quenched) which I have played around with.