HELP Chain Grinding & Sharpening

[Duke066]

Hello,

I need some help from you profesional chain grinders & sharpeners out there. I am new to this site today and I searched all 27 pages of posts for information on chain grinding and didn't find anything except on grinding wheels. I am retired and on Social Security and it is hard to make ends meet so I would like to start a chain sharpening business on the side.

I just bought a new Oregon 551462 X-Chain Hydraulic Grinder and I am looking for any information on how to properly and professionally sharpen chains. I would also like to know if there are any places where I can get information, charts and specs on the different chains and for starting this endevor.

I am new to all this so any help and information would surely be appreciated. I have sharpened my chains for years with a file but now want to try the chain grinding.

Thank you so very much.
Duke

 

[MCW]

Hi Duke and welcome to the site. I have the Speed Sharp hydraulic grinder which is basically the same unit as yours. They are both made by Tecomec in Italy.
First thing I would ask you is are you familiar with chainsaws and have you used many chainsaws? If you have been filing chains before then that's a good starting point.
The reason I ask is that if you have filed numerous chains over the years and then used them you should have a decent understanding of what a cutter needs to look like to cut properly.
If you have never used chainsaws or filed chains before then you may not know what a cutter needs to look like when you've ground it. Don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant to sound like an attack but sometimes the fact that people have been filing chains for years doesn't actually mean that they've been doing it properly.

For example I run 30° cutter angles on most chains I grind and a 65° hook. Most specifications say to run a 60° hook but in our timbers it is too aggressive, bluntens faster, and a 60° hook doesn't match the profile of a file very well.

Therefore my general sharpening setup is 30/65/0. Your manual should explain these numbers.

Then of course you don't want to take too much off the cutter in one hit as you run the risk of overheating the cutter. Then you also need to know how to adjust depth guages to suit the cutter length, the type of wood, saw power etc etc.

That should help a little bit but a lot comes down to experience. We can help you with the initial numbers to set the grinder up but experience plays a big hand in it as well.

 

[deepsouth]

Welcome.

27 pages is only topics from the last month :tongue2: near the bottom of that page is a topic display options panel. Change that and it will show lots more.

But you need to either use search or google - finish the search terms with the following " site:arboristsite.com " excluding the quotes.

Under the Hot saws forum there is also a chain sharpening sub forum that may interest you
http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/

If you get it going well, there are ABN/CBN wheels to consider buying that are expensive but give great results and have a long life too.

My preference is to file my chains with a Stihl fg2 jig. I have a cheap cheap grinder for utterly stuffed chains.

 

[Duke066]

Thank You Very Much

Hi Duke and welcome to the site. I have the Speed Sharp hydraulic grinder which is basically the same unit as yours. They are both made by Tecomec in Italy.
First thing I would ask you is are you familiar with chainsaws and have you used many chainsaws? If you have been filing chains before then that's a good starting point.
The reason I ask is that if you have filed numerous chains over the years and then used them you should have a decent understanding of what a cutter needs to look like to cut properly.
If you have never used chainsaws or filed chains before then you may not know what a cutter needs to look like when you've ground it. Don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant to sound like an attack but sometimes the fact that people have been filing chains for years doesn't actually mean that they've been doing it properly.

For example I run 30° cutter angles on most chains I grind and a 65° hook. Most specifications say to run a 60° hook but in our timbers it is too aggressive, bluntens faster, and a 60° hook doesn't match the profile of a file very well.

Therefore my general sharpening setup is 30/65/0. Your manual should explain these numbers.

Then of course you don't want to take too much off the cutter in one hit as you run the risk of overheating the cutter. Then you also need to know how to adjust depth guages to suit the cutter length, the type of wood, saw power etc etc.

That should help a little bit but a lot comes down to experience. We can help you with the initial numbers to set the grinder up but experience plays a big hand in it as well.

Hi,

Thank you for the welcome note.

I have used Stihl, McCullough and Homilite saws over the years. I still have all those saws and I am currently using my Stihl MS290 Farm Boss. Most of the time I sent my chains out to have them sharpened but in the past couple of years I began filing my own chains for the Stihl. When I did file my chains they did cut better but sometimes it seemed like the sharpness didn't last long.

I will not take anything you say as an attack. I will take it as new knowledge. I ground a couple of my chains so far for practice and I don't fully understand what is happening with what I am doing. It seems like different chains grind different or I am doing something wrong. I sharpened a couple chains with the pull down grinder set at 60 and cutting table where the chain locks set at 30 and the table slide set at 0. The cuts didn't look right so I tried them and they didn't cut good at all. I then changed the pull down grinder angle to 50 and they looked better and cut better. These numbers are not what the book said to cut at so that is why I thought I was doing something wrong. I don't want to be cutting chains wrong and charging people for my blunders or destroying their chains either.

I have a depth gauge to take the rikers down too but that to is also new to me. I ground my rakers down to where the guaage said to take them and the chain cuts good (so far). I am thinking of buying a diamond cutting wheel from Diamond Wheel Inc. to make the grinding better.

Thank you for all your help and I really do appreciate any information you give me.

Duke

 

[Duke066]

Thank You Very Much

Welcome.

27 pages is only topics from the last month :tongue2: near the bottom of that page is a topic display options panel. Change that and it will show lots more.

But you need to either use search or google - finish the search terms with the following " site:arboristsite.com " excluding the quotes.

Under the Hot saws forum there is also a chain sharpening sub forum that may interest you
http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/

If you get it going well, there are ABN/CBN wheels to consider buying that are expensive but give great results and have a long life too.

My preference is to file my chains with a Stihl fg2 jig. I have a cheap cheap grinder for utterly stuffed chains.

HI,

Thanks for the information. I didn't know about the topic display option. I did try and put chain grinding and chain sharpening in the search box but it didn't show anything. Maybe I did something wrong. I will do as you suggested and see where that gets me. I'm still trying to learn the site and how to get around in it. I will try and find the Hot Saws forum and get there and see what they have. I have found a lot of very interesting and helpful information on here last night when I joined up. I was up till 4 A/M here reading all the great information.

I don't know what ABN/CBN wheels are but I was thinking of buying a Diamond Wheel from Diamond Wheels Inc. I think they cost around $105.00 or so. I read some where that these are the best wheels available and I really do want to do a professional job on the wheels that I sharpen. I do not want to over heat the cutters by grinding to much. Like I said, I am new and don't understand the site yey nor do I understand all the abreviations. I can't even get the spell check to work right. LOL ( I do know that abreviation)

Thanks again and have a great day.

Duke

 

[Philbert]

Welcome to A.S.!

As noted, search specifically for chain grinding, chain sharpening, etc. you will find hundreds of pages. Up to you what to believe.

By A.S. 'tradition' as soon as someone asks for filing advice someone jumps in with how to grind, and vise-versa. So check both topics.

Sharpening as a business is different than doing just your personal or work chains. You have to make the business side work too. Maybe think about adding a spinner and breaker and doing chain repair as well. Find out if you can buy a few reels of chain wholesale.

CBN wheels might be justified for high volume work - save you time on each chain. Diamond wheels are for carbide cutters ONLY.

Sounds like you need to figure out some grinding basics first. Lots of info on those threads.

Philbert

 

[millbilly]

I used to swear by the file and I was never gonna buy an electric grinder. I found a great deal on an Oregon 511 mounted on its own pedestal stand with a foot pedal, and looked new for $45 bucks. That grinder changed my opinion about file sharpening.

My question is, when I change the angle the to do the opposite side cutters they become smaller than the opposite side. I mic them so I know it wasn't my eye. Also if I use the 30/60/0 The guard gets in the way on the left hand cutters, if I rock the holder I can sharpen the cutter with out hitting the guard.

I just ordered the cbn wheel. They were only around $100 and will last me a lifetime. From what I read they are cleaner, cooler, and do a great job. The stone wheels are $24 bucks its a no brainer.

 

[Philbert]

If the right and left cutters come out different lengths you probably need to center your chain holding vise.

Philbert

 

[MCW]

The ABN/CBN wheels are well worth it if you do a lot of chains. They produce less heat, their profile doesn't change and therefore wear, but the main reason I bought them was less dust. The 3 wheels I own cost a fair amount more than my grinder but are well worth it.
My 3/8" and .404" ground 1000's of chains before it needed to be sent away for recoating.

If your ground chain isn't cutting well make sure you are using the right wheel for the job, make sure the depth guages are set properly, and ensure you are bringing the wheel down far enough to leave a nice gullet and just miss the top of the tie straps.

 

[RVALUE]

Why does one need a different thickness wheel for different chain? The Non-stone (diamond) cutters aren't cutting more than 1/8 inch, so why would you need a 3/16? Most likely they are cutting with the 'face' .


I know, ignorant and inexperienced.

 

[MCW]

Why does one need a different thickness wheel for different chain? The Non-stone (diamond) cutters aren't cutting more than 1/8 inch, so why would you need a 3/16? Most likely they are cutting with the 'face' .


I know, ignorant and inexperienced.

Gullet, gullet, and more gullet...

You can't get the right gullet radius. I don't know if that's the technical term because I just made the name up

 

[WidowMaker]

Hi Duke and welcome to the site. I have the Speed Sharp hydraulic grinder which is basically the same unit as yours. They are both made by Tecomec in Italy.
First thing I would ask you is are you familiar with chainsaws and have you used many chainsaws? If you have been filing chains before then that's a good starting point.
The reason I ask is that if you have filed numerous chains over the years and then used them you should have a decent understanding of what a cutter needs to look like to cut properly.
If you have never used chainsaws or filed chains before then you may not know what a cutter needs to look like when you've ground it. Don't take this the wrong way as it isn't meant to sound like an attack but sometimes the fact that people have been filing chains for years doesn't actually mean that they've been doing it properly.

For example I run 30° cutter angles on most chains I grind and a 65° hook. Most specifications say to run a 60° hook but in our timbers it is too aggressive, bluntens faster, and a 60° hook doesn't match the profile of a file very well.Therefore my general sharpening setup is 30/65/0. Your manual should explain these numbers.

Then of course you don't want to take too much off the cutter in one hit as you run the risk of overheating the cutter. Then you also need to know how to adjust depth guages to suit the cutter length, the type of wood, saw power etc etc.

That should help a little bit but a lot comes down to experience. We can help you with the initial numbers to set the grinder up but experience plays a big hand in it as well.

===

Thats funny, I recently started grinding at a 55* angle because I like the gullet shape I get
better than a 60*... Haven't noticed any negavtive affect on cutting or edge performance...
YMMV

 

[Philbert]

Why does one need a different thickness wheel for different chain? . . .Most likely they are cutting with the 'face' .

Look closely at the underside of a cutter on a new chain. You are making a hollow grind on the top and side plates. Wrong size will not shape either correctly.

Square ground chain is different: two, flat profiles.

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

Millbilly: here's a link to the manual for the 511a grinder, in case yours did not come with it. Instructions for centering the vise are included. Sometimes its easier to do this with a new chain, but if you are mic'ing your cutters to the same length, you should be OK. I check my first cutter on the opposite side each time, and adjust a hair if needed.


http://www.baileysonline.com/PDF/Oregon511amanual_english.pdf


Duke:

Here are some references which should help you with chain angles and the shape of cutters, depth gauges, etc. (in addition to the A.S. posts).

***Also notice the parts on diagnosing and repairing damaged cutters, in addition to just sharpening dull cutters.


OREGON Maintenance and Safety Manual


("STIHL Sharp Advise for Chainsaw Users") http://blueandwhitecrew.org/files/SharpAdvice061301final.pdf

(The "Carlton Complete Book of Saw Chain" is also available free on-line, but you have to put up with ads, or sign up, so I did not post any direct links. Easy to search for).

Philbert

 

[MCW]

===

Thats funny, I recently started grinding at a 55* angle because I like the gullet shape I get
better than a 60*... Haven't noticed any negavtive affect on cutting or edge performance...
YMMV

What grinder do you run? I'm talking the Speed Sharps and other Tecomec grinders. Some grinders don't run the same numbers and for example a 30/65/0 setup won't make any sense on the Stihl grinders I've seen.
I also mentioned in our timbers and I notice you're from the Northern Hemisphere. I can assure you that running 60° in our hardwoods on a Speed Sharp will blunten faster and won't match a 7/32" file very well compared to 65°.
In pine and other softwoods I have no problem running more aggressive hook setups as going blunt isn't a major problem. If you're running 65° (assuming we're talking the same numbers?) have you found that when you file the same cutter that the file isn't touching in the centre?

 

[Duke066]

Welcome to A.S.!

As noted, search specifically for chain grinding, chain sharpening, etc. you will find hundreds of pages. Up to you what to believe.

By A.S. 'tradition' as soon as someone asks for filing advice someone jumps in with how to grind, and vise-versa. So check both topics.

Sharpening as a business is different than doing just your personal or work chains. You have to make the business side work too. Maybe think about adding a spinner and breaker and doing chain repair as well. Find out if you can buy a few reels of chain wholesale.

CBN wheels might be justified for high volume work - save you time on each chain. Diamond wheels are for carbide cutters ONLY.

Sounds like you need to figure out some grinding basics first. Lots of info on those threads.

Philbert

Hi Philbert,

Thanks for the welcome and the information.

The business end is just so that I can have a little extra money to make ends meet beside my Social Security check which isn't much.

I thought about doing chains but once again I know nothing about it. I do know that there are a lot of different chains out there and I don't know enough about all the numbers to feel comfortable making chains for people then charging them. I don't want to get a bad name and people spread the word that I don't know what I am doing.

I do not know what a CBN wheel is as of yet. I thought diamond wheels were for cutting steel chain.

Thanks again for your help

Duke

 

[Duke066]

The ABN/CBN wheels are well worth it if you do a lot of chains. They produce less heat, their profile doesn't change and therefore wear, but the main reason I bought them was less dust. The 3 wheels I own cost a fair amount more than my grinder but are well worth it.
My 3/8" and .404" ground 1000's of chains before it needed to be sent away for recoating.

If your ground chain isn't cutting well make sure you are using the right wheel for the job, make sure the depth guages are set properly, and ensure you are bringing the wheel down far enough to leave a nice gullet and just miss the top of the tie straps.

THANKS for the info MCW.

Duke

 

[Duke066]

Millbilly: here's a link to the manual for the 511a grinder, in case yours did not come with it. Instructions for centering the vise are included. Sometimes its easier to do this with a new chain, but if you are mic'ing your cutters to the same length, you should be OK. I check my first cutter on the opposite side each time, and adjust a hair if needed.


http://www.baileysonline.com/PDF/Oregon511amanual_english.pdf


Duke:

Here are some references which should help you with chain angles and the shape of cutters, depth gauges, etc. (in addition to the A.S. posts).

***Also notice the parts on diagnosing and repairing damaged cutters, in addition to just sharpening dull cutters.


OREGON Maintenance and Safety Manual


("STIHL Sharp Advise for Chainsaw Users") http://blueandwhitecrew.org/files/SharpAdvice061301final.pdf

(The "Carlton Complete Book of Saw Chain" is also available free on-line, but you have to put up with ads, or sign up, so I did not post any direct links. Easy to search for).

Philbert

THANKS Philbert.

Those links were a big help as well as the other info. Thanks again.

Duke

 

[Naked Arborist]

One thing I do is flip the wheel when doing the other side of the chain. In my case I get a bookended matched set of cutters. I use under sized thinner wheels and only profile dress them on one side only. It's a strange way to do it but it works for me. I'll give it some more thought and chime in again.

Welcome to AS.

 

[SierraWoodsman]

Try

I've found that putting a little ad on CL will help out with getting the word out in the beginning and won't cost you any money, but
it takes time to "build" a clientele. I've found satisfied customers spread the word the best (word of mouth). In truth I've come to the conclusion that it's tough to make any real $$$ Sharpening chains. I couldn't pay the bills this way. Maybe I charge too much, but for the time it takes + materials + wear and tear I can't see doing it
for much less. I wish you the best of luck in the endeavor though.
Here's a Link what I put together for my lil CL ad. Precision Chainsaw Sharpening
Maybe give you a starting point.