Help with a small plot clearing job

[clifforion]

Hi there first off I am not even sure if this is the right forum...I do not want to upset anyone with this very newbie question.

I have been doing residential tree work/removal for a company and on my own for a little while now, so as far as tree work goes and prices and time I pretty much know what to bid for that kind of job...Anyway a friend of mine that owns some oxen has found a person that needs about 3/4 of an acre of land cleared and he asked me if I would be interested in putting all the trees on the ground and bucking them and getting them prepped for him to skid them with his oxen. He knows how to skid with them but has never done it for money before so that will not be a problem.

The problem we are having is trying to figure out how to approach this and make money on it, the wood is almost all hardwood and as far as I can tell from only seeing the property once really quick its not anything that anyone doing boards would really want. The person has contacted a few of the bigger logging company's around here and has said he isn't going to go with them...not sure he doesn't like the bids or, if the companies don't want to do it cause of the trees, or being on the back of his residential property or not...

Anyway I was wondering how put a bid in on this job....as far as I can tell ( not even close to calling myself knowledgeable about this) the trees are more just junky trees that will probably go to firewood. He just wants the land cleared and everything gone. Would I be better off using an hourly rate? Or per tree quote? Or even the amount of land being cleared? Or am I wayyy out of the ball park with my thinking? Before I do anything I would like to have an idea of what I am getting into.....we don't have to make huge dollars on this its just me and him, and to a point a learning curve for small future jobs if any do arise.

I am not expecting anyone to say this job is X amount of dollars I am not looking for that, just looking to figure out how to come up with a fair amount for the homeowner and for us doing the job. As far as the job goes I am not worried about the work at hand just how to come up with an honest figure that everyone will benefit from.

I know this is a forum of experienced people and I know this is a newbie question that is why I am here to just do the right thing with everyone involved.

If anyone has questions please ask...I have not really tackled anything on this scale before so I may have missed some key information needed to answer my questions.

Thank you in advance
Keith

 

[cffr]

Hi there first off I am not even sure if this is the right forum...I do not want to upset anyone with this very newbie question.

I have been doing residential tree work/removal for a company and on my own for a little while now, so as far as tree work goes and prices and time I pretty much know what to bid for that kind of job...Anyway a friend of mine that owns some oxen has found a person that needs about 3/4 of an acre of land cleared and he asked me if I would be interested in putting all the trees on the ground and bucking them and getting them prepped for him to skid them with his oxen. He knows how to skid with them but has never done it for money before so that will not be a problem.

The problem we are having is trying to figure out how to approach this and make money on it, the wood is almost all hardwood and as far as I can tell from only seeing the property once really quick its not anything that anyone doing boards would really want. The person has contacted a few of the bigger logging company's around here and has said he isn't going to go with them...not sure he doesn't like the bids or, if the companies don't want to do it cause of the trees, or being on the back of his residential property or not...

Anyway I was wondering how put a bid in on this job....as far as I can tell ( not even close to calling myself knowledgeable about this) the trees are more just junky trees that will probably go to firewood. He just wants the land cleared and everything gone. Would I be better off using an hourly rate? Or per tree quote? Or even the amount of land being cleared? Or am I wayyy out of the ball park with my thinking? Before I do anything I would like to have an idea of what I am getting into.....we don't have to make huge dollars on this its just me and him, and to a point a learning curve for small future jobs if any do arise.

I am not expecting anyone to say this job is X amount of dollars I am not looking for that, just looking to figure out how to come up with a fair amount for the homeowner and for us doing the job. As far as the job goes I am not worried about the work at hand just how to come up with an honest figure that everyone will benefit from.

I know this is a forum of experienced people and I know this is a newbie question that is why I am here to just do the right thing with everyone involved.

If anyone has questions please ask...I have not really tackled anything on this scale before so I may have missed some key information needed to answer my questions.

Thank you in advance
Keith

so many questions but i will bite. first thing before you even consider any bid or even doing the job you need to do a full walk through of the property and get every single detail of what the land owner wants done write everything down and take a camera and take lots of pictures. without knowing all the details of the job the hazards and obstacles and expectations you have no business even thinking of putting in a bid it will only go bad that way. some questions to ask and think about

1 is it a complete clear cut or leave some?

2 what about slash and brush disposal? do you have to pile and burn or chip it or?

3 do you have to haul off all the wood or is someone else doing that?

4 any access problems or restrictions?

5 what are the time limits?

most important can you do the job? be honest with yourself it is better to walk away from it and not bid then get yourself in alot of trouble.
in my opinion the best way to bid it is to figure all your costs leave a little room say 10% for problems include chains, sharpening, fuel, and everything else which you should know if you have the experience you have. then pay yourself an hourly wage and figure out how many hours it is going to take and put all that together documented for the land owner and tell them this is what i can do it for and show your costs. also factor in the wood if you want to sell it as firewood buy the wood from the land owner or make an agreement to take it and make sure they know you are going to sell it. there will be alot of other factors to consider and you should know those with your experience so i wont go into them. get everything in writing type up a simple contract before work starts if you bid and make sure you do the job the way you said you would. I wont bid on anything less than 50 acres cause it aint worth it for me but you might be able to make it pay if you do your homework and bid right and dont forget insurance!!!

 

[northmanlogging]

At a guess the home owner is looking to either make no money or get himself a little cash.

Thats why the other outfits were passed up they cost to much to keep running and can't do a job like this and make money.

Plan on finding a few gems in the pile maybe enough to make a log load and the rest to go to fire wood, both options you can make money on and maybe enough to kick back to the homeowner, all depends on how efficient you can make it happen.

If I where you I would offer the homeowner a % over cost. That way if you come out making lot of money he/she/it don't feel like they got ripped off, keep track of everything that leaves and where it goes.

If yer any kind of feller...(notice I didn't say fAller) you could get 3/4 of an acre on the ground in 2-3 days with lots of smoke breaks, and break downs. So yer kinda dependent on how well yer buddies oxen mind him, there's a reason they call them guys bull punchers.

Have fun and let us know how it goes

 

[Frank Boyer]

What about the stumps?

 

[clifforion]

Getting a better idea

Hi there thank you all for responding, there are a lot of good points that were suggested that I still need to figure out.

The home owner wants the back part of his lot cleared of everything and taken away ( from how I understand things right now anyway.. ). I have not been dealing as much with him as my friend has, my friend is the one that started on this project, the only part he knows is the skidding part with his oxen, he has done it before, but again not for money. The home owner wants the stumps gone also but it already is known we have no way of doing the stumps he said flush cut will be fine.

As far as the wood goes I don't really see any trees that look valuable for lumber sale...again I am in no way a great judge at that, I have a very very small idea on what they are looking for and to me...there just isn't a lot of nice prime big stuff, it looks the like the lot may have been cleared at one point years ago already. As far as I know right now it will all go for fire wood, not sure if it is just going to be promised to people or sold, have to figure that out further I guess..... I have access to a good size chipper so the brush is going to get chipped and I have a place that takes chips free so that is not an issue. Access to the area is good and there are no real issues with any of that.

I knew this wasn't going to be super easy..and there have been so many good points brought up. I do know how to get the trees down proficiently enough and my friend knows how to skid so that isn't as much the issue. Its the money involved which is harder for me to judge. I know the cost of fuel and chain and time ect. but for me its more the issue of the sale of the wood...or none sale I guess could also be put in there. Thats why I am trying to figure out how to put a good honest bid out there that is fair for everyone..

Anyway I hope this helps on my end of things I will do more thinking about it today and sure I will come up with more questions or comments...
Thank you all again for your time
Keith

 

[arborealbuffoon]

FWIW, I see a few challenges for you here. First and foremost, if this is a "logging" project where your money comes from the sale of timber products I think you are missing some key information. Based on the size (< an acre) I can't imagine that there would be a sufficient quantity of saleable timber products there to even justify bringing out a chipper and saws. Additionally, if that is the case, I am not clear how you plan to load and haul said products to the mill. Log trucks/loaders don't run for free, and it is often a challenge to even get one out there for less than one load.

I do a fair amount of clearing and forest management on a small scale. I no longer have much overhead as far as large equipment, and I simply bill for my time. The value of firewood is negligible, unless the HO wants it. If the wood stays, the HO pays for any firewood processing done on site. If the wood goes (regardless of how it is disposed of) then the HO pays for the hauling.

In my area and considering other economic factors, a couple of skilled guys who are well equipped with saws and all the basics (including climbing capabilities) command well upwards of 100 bucks an hour. Without much experience (and sometimes even with) it can be quite difficult to accurately estimate the time required. There are always setbacks, no matter how thorough the guy doing the estimate is. So, your best option would be to charge these small jobs out on an hourly basis. I understand that it is not always possible to work out such an arrangement, and some folks really want a firm dollar amount. In that case, cover your butt as much as possible and factor in extra dough to cover expenses that can (and will) arise unexpectedly.

Then, there's the matter of those cranky oxen. What happens if those guys decide to unionize their gig half way thru!?! Then you'll be on the hook for their health insurance, retirement, braces for their kids, and you'll probably only get a couple hours of actual WORK out of them each day. Ahh.....the pitfalls of the ole Wood Whore.........

 

[clifforion]

Thank you again all of you for your suggestions. After reading them over again I think that arborealbuffoon kinda hit closest to what I am trying to accomplish. Actually not really accomplish just what reality is. I do not think that there is enough lumber that it is worth calling a mill on....and even if I did it probably wouldn't be beneficial for me or the homeowner. The lot doesn't even look like it has that many "good" trees on it, again my idea of a good tree and others could be different. I think that as far as what happens with the wood we will have to come to an agreement with. I think right now I am going to look at it as a "by the hour" kind of job. I have a decent idea on how to go about doing that from where I work and also I do tree work on the weekends. As far as sale of the wood for firewood we do not have plans on selling any...so if the homeowner wants it gone I will just look at it as if it were a residential tree removal except on a bigger scale, I know how to do bids on that type of work. I won't over inflate it either, I know it is on a bigger scale so I will just compensate for that.

Thank all of you for your time and input it is well appreciated. I will update all of you on what happens.
Keith
P/s My friend is really good with the oxen...but I will let him know that he might want to think about better benefits for them. lol. I think that all will go fine with them they are a pretty decent team and that is what he has trained them for. again thank you!

 

[mdavlee]

The easiest way to get paid for it if the owner is going to sell it by the cord or if you could sell the wood and pay him a percentage of the total. If you do happen to get a load of logs then a percentage for you and the guy skidding and the owner. Are you hauling all the wood off or is the home owner going to take care of that?

 

[clifforion]

The easiest way to get paid for it if the owner is going to sell it by the cord or if you could sell the wood and pay him a percentage of the total. If you do happen to get a load of logs then a percentage for you and the guy skidding and the owner. Are you hauling all the wood off or is the home owner going to take care of that?

From what I understand the homeowner wants the land cleared and everything gone, he wants the stumps gone also, but he already knows that we have no way of doing it and he said that is not a deal breaker as long as we flush them.

My friend is the one that initiated everything and he asked if I wanted to go into this venture with him due to the fact I have a good understanding of the tree business (residential removals).

As far as the wood goes if we do end up with it I am still not 100% sure what we will do with it. Between the 2 of us we have more than plenty of room to store it for the short term and then figure out what to do. We really don't care to sell it on our own to us its more of a hassle if we do firewood with it.

I just didn't know the specifics on pricing due to the fact of the woods value. All my residential removals I know I am either taking the wood or leaving it and I give the price according to the amount of work I have to do. With land clearing there is a lot more value in the end product that I am just not familiar with.

As far as I personally am concerned I would be happy just getting all the trees on the ground skidding the wood to a predetermined spot, chipping ( and removing) the brush, get paid and be on our way. But I knew going into this it probably would be more complicated than that, that is why I am asking for hints so I don't go into this and not be fair to everyone involved.

Before I write a book, I again want to thank everyone, and appreciate all your time and expert opinions on this.
Keith

 

[clifforion]

Update

Hi everyone, I just wanted to update who ever is following this. Me and my friend did not end up getting that job. Someone else got it cause they could do the stumps like the homeowner wanted and also from what I hear that person will pay good money to the homeowner for the timber...not sure if for firewood or for boards but that is the rumor I hear. (course we all know what rumors are lol).
Anyway now I at least have an idea what we would be up against if another job comes along.
Thank you all very much for your time!
Keith