"hook" or chisel angle when sharpening well used chains. Update: New Chain and Chip Pics.

[ANewSawyer]

Edit: See post 45 for the new pics.

I have been doing some exploritory sharpening with my swedish roller guide. I think the chain has been sharpened so much that the correct size file is putting too steep of a "hook" or maybe I should call it the chisel angle. This the bottom of the top plate that I am talking about. I think more then 20% of the file is above the top plate. Could I use a smaller file to bring the angle closer to the correct 20% of file above the plate? This is Husqvarna H30 chain. That should be the same as Oregon 95vp. And I think it is semi chisel.

Thanks for the help. I got to go!

 

[aarolar]

My opinion is if this is for firewood? If so you are way over thinking things if it cuts good go with it.

 

[ANewSawyer]

Not for firewood but just homeowner uses. This is also my first saw and I am just trying to learn about it. That is all. I haven't tried cutting with it yet because I haven't had time. If it cuts well, ok! But if does not cut well, what then?

 

[Terry Syd]

You can use any file you want on the Husky roller guides. The 'hook' might not be the optimum, but you can get it to work. I bought a 3/8's guide for a mate with an old Husky 61. Unfortunately, non of his chains were the type designed for the roller guide. I set him up with two different files to use on his different chains. Choosing the better fitting file, he can get close to a 20%.

I've got a rocked out VP95 chain that I'm going to use a 3/8s file on to remove the ragged edge on the cutter. Once I've got it cleaned up, then I'll pull out the 3/16 file to sharpen it.

The Husky 3/16 file is just a tad smaller in diameter than any of the other 3/16 files and gives a better hook on VP95.

 

[hamish]

The Husky 3/16 file is just a tad smaller in diameter than any of the other 3/16 files and gives a better hook on VP95.

Are you sure you are using the 3/16 file or the 4.5mm file, which is a tad smaller than the 3/16 file.

 

[aarolar]

Are you sure you are using the 3/16 file or the 4.5mm file, which is a tad smaller than the 3/16 file.

I was thinking that 3/16 is 3/16 anything else is something different...

 

[Terry Syd]

The difference in size is small, but it exists. Using a micrometre on the various files will illustrate the difference in sizes. As I recall, the Stihl 3/16 file (4.8mm) is the largest in diameter of the 3/16 files. Vallorbe and Save Edge are between the Husky and Stihl.

I use the Stihl file on my stumping chain as it gives slightly less hook when used on the roller guide.

The OP was looking for a smaller file, so the Husky file is the smallest of the lot. I've never used a 5/32 (4.5mm) file on the VP95, but I'd think it would be too small.

 

[hamish]

I was thinking that 3/16 is 3/16 anything else is something different...

In some markets all the files are metric, and a true metric, not rebadged imperial sizes.

Most likely in the US the majority of dealers do not have 5.5mm, 4.5mm or 4.0mm files on there shelf. Here we have all them and 7/32, 3/16, 5/32 files etc. There is a difference.

As Terry is from Australia......................

 

[ANewSawyer]

You can use any file you want on the Husky roller guides. The 'hook' might not be the optimum, but you can get it to work. I bought a 3/8's guide for a mate with an old Husky 61. Unfortunately, non of his chains were the type designed for the roller guide. I set him up with two different files to use on his different chains. Choosing the better fitting file, he can get close to a 20%.

I've got a rocked out VP95 chain that I'm going to use a 3/8s file on to remove the ragged edge on the cutter. Once I've got it cleaned up, then I'll pull out the 3/16 file to sharpen it.

The Husky 3/16 file is just a tad smaller in diameter than any of the other 3/16 files and gives a better hook on VP95.

This is a Husky 3/16 file and the roller gauge is marked for 4.8 mm.

What angle is the hook supposed to have anyway? It would help me a lot to know. I saw something yesterday saying it should be around 45 degrees. That sounds a little steep but would probably be close to what the current angle is on my chain. Give or take 5 degrees though. I need to put up some pictures of the cutters. Maybe I can do that this weekend.

Thanks for all the other help. The discussion on file sizes is interesting.

 

[Marshy]

Why not file deeper into the root of the link to bring the file back down to 20%? What's stopping you, the file guide? Time to take the guide off and free hand it maybe?

 

[ANewSawyer]

Why not file deeper into the root of the link to bring the file back down to 20%? What's stopping you, the file guide? Time to take the guide off and free hand it maybe?

It is with a roller guide. I am wanting to find out what angle of hook I am looking for so I can go free hand. Is there some where that would publish that info?

 

[Marshy]

I dont think it matters that much.

 

[Philbert]

In general, since the top plate of the tooth is angled, the cutter gets smaller as it nears the end of it's life. It is common on many chains for people to switch to a smaller diameter file as the cutter gets smaller.

Whether or not that is important for you, on that chain, is up to you. You can try it and see if it makes a difference to you.

Note also that the 95VP chain is narrow kerf, and uses a different roller guide than the standard .325 chain (even though both are silver).

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

I am wanting to find out what angle of hook I am looking for so I can go free hand. Is there some where that would publish that info?

I have no idea how to accurately measure the hook, but here is the information you were asking for.

http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf

I think that it is better to use the file diameter and the file height, as you were discussing earlier, and go with the resultant angles rather than trying to measure them.

Philbert

* Note that the angles in that chart, marked 'C', are different then the head tilt settings when using a grinder.

 

[Terry Syd]

The roller guide works fine with the Husky file. The hook you get will not be a set angle, it will have a curvature to it, concave, because of the round file.

The roller guide also has the 10 degree down angle designed into it, that means you will get a 'progressive' hook. The hook will be more at the outer edge of the cutter than at the bend. Sharpen the cutter with the guide and take a close look at the underside of the sharpened edge - there will be more hook as you move further from the bend.

The VP95 chain works well in Ozzie hardwood. I can take the hook out to a little over 80% of the file diameter and it will still hold up in use. If I get it to about 85%, it can get damaged very quickly.

I suggest you work with the roller guide for a while as it will give you a good edge that is repeatable and that you can study how that edge works. Just make sure the roller guide is on correctly, sometimes it may encounter some resistance on the chain and sit a bit high. Just give it a tap down and make sure it is seated correctly.

 

[CTYank]

One of the reasons I like the Granberg filing guide, is that I can set the file height to where I want it, without being constrained by various little gubbinses. Just so long as I don't file through the side straps.

Soooo glad I never got into these filing kits & bits.

 

[Terry Syd]

Another thing to consider when working with hook is how the file works in the bend of the cutter. If you get too much hook the top part of the bend sticks out too far (appears to have a 'beak') and won't last as long.

The Woodland Pro chains (20NK) I tried had a beak on the cutter with the factory grind, which flattened after three cuts in my wood. I've since resharpened the chains with a larger file using the Husky roller guide and have removed the beak and put the initial contact point with the wood on the curvature of the bend.

 

[ANewSawyer]

Here is the file kit I have: http://www.lowes.com/pd_41169-86886...currentURL=?Ntt=husqvarna+file+kit&facetInfo= Ignore the glaring 3/8s" in the title. It is a 0.325 kit. And marked for H30 which is Husqvarna's VP 95 equivalent.

Alright, you guys were right and I was over thinking this. I just had no idea what I was looking for after the filing was done. I would rather have more than enough info than to try to work on an incomplete understanding. Sorry, I tend to get a little cerebral when I am trying to understand something. The other problem is that I don't know how to tell how much file is showing when I am sharpening. Roller guide or no roller guide. It would be easy to tell from the end but what about from the top???

After looking at that wonderful link posted by Philbert (thank you, thank you, thank you), I have come to the conclusion that the roller guide is right. It is a lot steeper of an angle than I was expecting and it caught me off guard. I had two sharpening examples to go off of. The original chain, which is really gummed up and a bright shiny new chain. That new chain has a ton of beak to it. So I thought that is what the roller guide was going to put on the used chain. Well, guess what, I was wrong!

I still want to put pictures up because I think I need to do some more work on the cutter. The marks left by the file in the roller guide just touch the corner but don't yet go down the side plate more than a really, really tiny bit. I mean less than the width of a couple of hairs. Somewhere, I left out file size but I don't think it is quite time to go to a smaller file yet.

 

[Philbert]

One advantage to sharpening your own chains is that you get to do it how you want. Start with the manufacturer's specs, but don't be afraid to vary: angles, file diameter, file height, depth gauge settings, etc. You won't be 'wrong', as long as you are doing it intentionally.

It might cut better for you and the type of cutting you do, or not. Some angles work better in certain woods. Some angles cut faster, but don't hold up as well. Performance can even vary with the power of the saw.

File guides help you control one or more variables (top plate angle, file height, 'down angle') so that you can get consistent cutter teeth.

Once you are comfortable getting consistent teeth, feel free to experiment if you want. E.g. try more or less 'hook'. Try different angles or file sizes. Just understand that you might need to use a different type of file guide, or none at all, to change some of these variables.

And remember that most changes come with trade-offs. The manufacturer specs are based on best, 'all-around'/general use, but may not be the best for you.

Philbert

 

[Terry Syd]

When using the roller guide, make sure you have a clean 'gullet' below the file. You want the file to roll on the rollers, not ride on metal in the gullet. You may have to take a larger file and clean out any extra metal on a used chain. If you have metal under the file, it will tend to lift the sharpening file up a bit and change your hook.

I noticed when I first started using the guides that I tended to push down too much on the front roller. The file should roll flat across the rollers. If you aren't getting the same angle on the top plate as the witness mark on the cutter, try changing the pressure on the front or back roller and it will shift the angle a bit.

I put a wedge under the chain on the low side of the bar to keep the chain tight against the bar. That gives a consistent position for each cutter. If the cutter can rock upward from the force of the file, it will change the hook.