How small is to small?

[clifforion]

Hi there I have been reading threads here for a while about how long a bar is bad ( or good ) on how a saw performs.

I was wondering how small is to small? My question is more about a 70 cc saw, but any comments on any other size is more then welcome.

I hear how people saw a shorter bar is faster in the cut and I do realize that is true to a point but... for an example stihl recommends a 25 on their 441, and I have read a lot of comments on how that bar compliments that saw. I know east cost and west coast are different and Europeans go a lot shorter.

My question is more how short does a bar go on a regular "work" saw before you will see no difference or very little difference with that saw and a saw one size smaller, in my reference it would be a 60cc saw. Again comments for a 50cc and 90cc saws or what ever size are more than welcome.

I know you can change sprockets and skip chain and all that. I am just looking for "average". I am on the east coast so it is mainly hardwood but either or. I am not looking for oh use this bar on that saw...or cookie cutting. I do general tree work which includes some falling and climbing and so on.

I really haven't seen any threads on shorter bars the threads are usually on how long a bar a saw will take. I don't want to open a can of worms. I just wanted to know on average how short before you don't see any "real" word difference.
Thanks for your time
Keith
p/s I know this will open a can of worms!

 

[KenJax Tree]

I've run between 16" and 28" on my 372xp which is comparable to your 441 and 28" was pushing it so best results i would say run between 16"-25"

 

[RVALUE]

In my opinion, anything less than a 20 on a 60 cc plus saw is a waste of human energy bending over to reach the ground and to reach limbs etc. Why would anyone want a shorter bar? Storage?


I've never seen a discernible difference on the HP req'd.


I run a 48 on my 372 and it works ok. for a couple cuts per year.

 

[mikefunaro]

Basically in my book every saw has a bar size which it will pull very well and going below it yields diminishing returns.

I bought a 15" bar as a joke for my 576 a while back:

If you cut mainly hardwood of modest diameter, then there is a reasonable argument to be made for running a short bar which still allows you to cut all of the wood that you need to cut. Maybe you will need to reach from both sides. But the point is the saw runs really well, and you dont have to worry about how hard you're pressing on the saw and all of that as you're cutting.

Pretty much any 70 cc saw will pull a 20" bar very well with a 7 pin, and stronger 70 cc saws will pull a 20" bar well with an 8 pin.

You could go one size below and maybe go with an 18", and pull with an 8 rim even with a weaker 70 cc saw.

After a while shorter bars mean more leaning and bending. I'm young so that's not too much of an issue but if I can avoid leaning down real low while I'm limbing I'm happy to do so.

There's also an argument for longer bars--if you can cut 90% of the wood you cut with a 24" bar in one cut, rather than say 50% with a 20" in one cut, even though you move through the logs at any given time slower you may be more productive with a longer bar. Having to double cut each and every piece is unproductive--at some point that's why people go for bigger saws to begin with--to run longer bars. I could buck up a 32" tree with my 550xp and an 18" bar, but I'd rather buck it up with my 372 and a 24"

 

[Philbert]

My question is more how short does a bar go on a regular "work" saw before you will see no difference or very little difference with that saw and a saw one size smaller, in my reference it would be a 60cc saw.

Pulling a longer chain requires more power due to the friction of the chain in the bar groove. If the longer chain is fully buried, you also need more power to pull all those cutters through the wood.

Going shorter, less power is needed to pull the chain around the bar, or to pull all the cutters through the wood.

If you put a shorter bar on a big saw, you will still have all that additional torque to pull the chain - I don't think you will mistake it for a smaller saw, but it might not be needed. Shorter bars will also affect the balance and handling of the larger saw, which can make it less comfortable to use.

Philbert

 

[RandyMac]

:msp_biggrin:

 

[lambs]

It's not all about power

Sometimes a shorter bar just makes a saw handle better and reduces the risk of hitting something with the nose of the bar that might cause a dangerous kickback.

I have found it true with my MS 261. It came with a 16" bar but I went out and bought an 18" .325 bar thinking a little longer would be better. It really isn't. If I want a longer bar, I grab a bigger saw even though the 261 pulls it just fine. But in tight quarters, the 16" is easier to handle and holds revs just a little better, so I find the 18" bar is of little use to me.

I picked up an 046 earlier this spring, and the guy I got it from was running an 18" on it. I switched that bar over to my 039 and put the 20" bar on the 046. I'm sure it will handle that just fine, and now I have two saws with 18" available bars that I will probably not need. And I also got a 24" bar in the deal, which should be fun if I ever need it on the 046.

 

[clifforion]

wow fast responses!

Thank everyone for their answers. I am not sure if I worded my question right, I understand all the answers that I got and by no means picking a fight they all make sense and they are all valid.

My question is more how short is to short before the saw is to big? ...If you run an 18" bar on a 70 cc saw...or lets say a 16" ( kinda exaggerating maybe in the states anyway)...would a 60 cc saw pull those bars pretty close to the same speed? or close enough to not notice much difference? Just cutting, not fuel or sharpening or limbing/vs falling. I mean just pure cutting would they be "about" the same speed more or less buried in a cut? The smaller saw would seem like the better choice, for weight and fuel if the speed was very close.

I was watching a video on the tube, and the person did a comparison between a 441, 460, 660 big bore, and 660 ported with a 28 bar. I know that some say a 28 is on the bigger side for a 441 and some say a 28 is on the shorter side for the 660....honestly they were not "all" that much different in speed. Yes the ported 660 did come out first but...not by all that much.

I was watching another video that had a 880 vs 660 both with...I believe a 20" bar..or maybe 24, again...they were pretty close.

I have a 660 at work and I do understand that a 660 will pull a 36 way better than a 441/440. I am not asking that end of things I am asking the other end. Would for example a 660 be "that" much faster than a 441 both with a 20" bar? A lot of people say a 60 cc saw is just right for a 20" bar. I know people say fueling and stuff takes up time that is one of the reasons for this question a 60cc saw will be the most economical out of the lot and that accounts for time in the day I realize that, I am just asking more about the "cut".

I read a thread on here about the husqvarna 562 pulling a 20" bar and was super fast. I have also read on here about a stihl 441 pulling a 20" super fast.....is there "realistically" that much difference? How about with an 18? I am not picking a stihl vs husqvarana battle just using references that I have read.

I have not played all that much with bar lengths on the same saw to know or to buy another saw with a different bar length. I don't have much gear for myself and at work we don't change bar lengths because the ones we have my boss says works the best, and they do work well.

If I am rambling and upsetting people with my question that is not my intention I am just curious about how short a bar can get before it becomes not beneficial to that saw and could by all means be run by a saw one size down.
Thank you again
Keith

 

[timberland ts]

I do tree work for a living and match the bar with the saw. My o36 has a twenty my 576 and 460 run 24+25" my 372 runs a 28 660 a 32" and my 84 wears a 36". Most of my cutting is with the 24-25" size.Just makes sense for me.

 

[mikefunaro]

I was watching another video that had a 880 vs 660 both with...I believe a 20" bar..or maybe 24, again...they were pretty close.

I have a 660 at work and I do understand that a 660 will pull a 36 way better than a 441/440. I am not asking that end of things I am asking the other end. Would for example a 660 be "that" much faster than a 441 both with a 20" bar? A lot of people say a 60 cc saw is just right for a 20" bar. I know people say fueling and stuff takes up time that is one of the reasons for this question a 60cc saw will be the most economical out of the lot and that accounts for time in the day I realize that, I am just asking more about the "cut".

I read a thread on here about the husqvarna 562 pulling a 20" bar and was super fast. I have also read on here about a stihl 441 pulling a 20" super fast.....is there "realistically" that much difference? How about with an 18? I am not picking a stihl vs husqvarana battle just using references that I have read.


Keith

You're basically answering your own question here...

Another consideration: larger saws (stock) are generally lower RPM and generate peak torque at lower RPM. If the cutting equipment isn't sufficient to take advantage of the power band then the saw will not really excel versus another saw of lower RPM.

For example: my 372 could probably beat my 3120 if they are both wearing 20s, unless I really really lowered the drags on the chain for the 3120 and applied quite a bit of pressure.

If the 562 is pulling the same bar and chain and keeping higher RPMs than a 70 cc saw then it may actually be faster.

Unless you lowered the rakers, applied more pressure, or did something, the 441 may actually be faster than the 660. If you're not using the torque of the saw and the power of the saw then it's not going to actually be faster.

 

[homelitejim]

My ms441 cuts faster than my 066 with a 20 inch bar but strap on a 28 or bigger and the 066 pulls away . The 25 inch stihl bar and chain had both saws very close.

 

[bcaarms]

echo 271T 12"
mm 271 xp 20"
Wicked 385 XP 32"
mm 346 xp when it comes back probably 16"

If Im going to cut something I decide how I want to cut it. The shorter bars are a lot easier to keep from finding a vine or a small branch I didn't notice on the other side of the main log. I prefer a very clean working space with longer bars. The 32" is mainly for stumps. I know some like to use the longer bar to reach without bending, but I'm not there, yet.:msp_wink:

If I was going to only have one saw I'd get a couple of bars and learn what I preferred instead of relying on someone to tell me what they like. They may have a lot more experience than I do. I do notice the guys that have been around a while use the proper tool for the job.

 

[Philbert]

You can pull a small boat trailer with a semi-tractor. Or you can pull it with an average pick up truck. The semi will not slow down, even if the wheels fall off the boat trailer. But it is also larger, heavier, more awkward to drive, drinks more fuel, etc. So there is no real advantage to using it over the pick up truck, unless it is all you have. If you did it all the time, the pick up truck would be more comfortable, more nimble, and use less fuel.

You would want to match the tow vehicle with the load. And you would want tires on the tow vehicle that made sense, not just tires that 'fit'.

Same thing with the saw: you want to match the powerhead, bar, chain, and sprocket to the work you expect to do most often. Occasionally running a longer or shorter bar won't hurt, but it won't be optimal if you do it a lot.

BTW - this is why many guys on this site have 2 or more saws (well, one of the reasons . . . )

Philbert

 

[fearofpavement]

A large saw will in most cases cut faster than a smaller saw.

I run an 18" bar on my Jonsered 2172 (about the same saw as the Husky 372). I think that bar is a waste of the saw's capability. I run the 18" because I have a dozen .058 ga chains that fit that bar and don't have another suitable saw that will fit that bar/chain combo. The powerhead is better suited for a 20" to 24" bar.

That said, the saw with the 18" bar will zip through wood much faster than any of my smaller saws. Even though it is faster, I don't feel the additional "speed" is a good trade off for the heavier and more costly powerhead. I have 20" bars that fit my MS660 but don't use them. I don't run anything less than a 24" on a saw that size.

Like so many "questions" on this site, a lot is just personal preference. I generally top (limb) felled trees out with a Stihl 026 or 028 and use that until I get to wood that is more than a foot in diameter and then move up a size. To me "light and nimble" beats out "more powerful". There was a time when I had a lot less saws and still got the jobs done, having more tools is always helpful to work more efficiently. I do a lot of mechanical work and don't use a crescent wrench very often. They will often get the job done but not as well as a more appropriate tool.

Thus most sawyers use a saw proportionate to the size of wood being cut. That is why the "one saw plan" is a challenge. So if you have a big powerhead, run any bar that will fit it but it will be "happy" within a certain range.

 

[KenJax Tree]

You're basically answering your own question here...

Another consideration: larger saws (stock) are generally lower RPM and generate peak torque at lower RPM. If the cutting equipment isn't sufficient to take advantage of the power band then the saw will not really excel versus another saw of lower RPM.

For example: my 372 could probably beat my 3120 if they are both wearing 20s, unless I really really lowered the drags on the chain for the 3120 and applied quite a bit of pressure.

If the 562 is pulling the same bar and chain and keeping higher RPMs than a 70 cc saw then it may actually be faster.

Unless you lowered the rakers, applied more pressure, or did something, the 441 may actually be faster than the 660. If you're not using the torque of the saw and the power of the saw then it's not going to actually be faster.

With a 20" bar my 562 is faster than the 372 but move up to 24" and the 372 pulls ahead.

 

[Philip Wheelock]

...My question is more how short is to short before the saw is to big? ...If you run an 18" bar on a 70 cc saw...or lets say a 16"...would a 60 cc saw pull those bars pretty close to the same speed?...

I believe yes. And if the 60cc saw makes its maximum hp at higher rpm's, it might be faster, the chain specs being equal. Also assuming full comp chains for all these comparisons.

...Would for example a 660 be "that" much faster than a 441 both with a 20" bar? A lot of people say a 60 cc saw is just right for a 20" bar...

The 441 might be faster for the reasons above. 20" bar works well on a 562xp and the balance is good. MS361 and MS362 balance better with an 18" bar but have the power to run a 20" bar.

I read a thread on here about the husqvarna 562 pulling a 20" bar and was super fast. I have also read on here about a stihl 441 pulling a 20" super fast.....is there "realistically" that much difference? How about with an 18?...

I've run a 562xp with 20" bar and it is fast and lively. I have a couple of MS440's with 20" bars; they're plenty fast, too, albeit heavier. Haven't compared them for cutting speed, but the main difference for me is the increased torque of the 70cc saw tends to muscle through different cutting situations and I prefer that "feel" for reasons of easier control. With an 18" bar, I don't believe that the extra cc's would offer an advantage and the 562xp might be faster due to chain speed. MS441 struts its stuff w/25" bar.

 

[o8f150]

I run a 20" b/c on my ported 372xp,, If I need a bit bigger I just throw on the 24 incher,, and if that's not big enough I pull out the solo 603 with a 36" b/c:msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:

 

[Philbert]

I run the 18" because I have a dozen .058 ga chains that fit that bar and don't have another suitable saw that will fit that bar/chain combo. The powerhead is better suited for a 20" to 24" bar.

Well, we know to get you a spinner/breaker combo for your birthday!

Philbert

 

[M&Rtree]

For me i have to have a saw for every bar. I cant be taking the time to change bars on the job and wasting day light before Floridas 3 o clock rain. So if i call for a saw number the guys know exactly which to grab and the saw is set-up with a bar for a certain job. Saves alot of time and i know the saw i get will be the best for what size caliper im cutting. No need to where yourself out if you dont have to.

 

[NewToStihl]

Okay . . . hold tight fellas . . . I got this!

The ideal way to calculate the most optimal bar length for any given saw is 2.9 cubic centimeters per inch of bar length. Approximately, of course.

opcorn: