Huge White Oak needs help

unclecrash · May 21, 2011

I have a huge white oak that is doing worse every year. I was told some years ago that if it does not get deep root feeding every year it will die. I cannot afford to pay a company to do this. My friend told me I should make holes along the drip line and do it myself with fertilizer. I have a pick I can drive good sizr holes every so many feet and pour fertilizer in. Can anybody help me in what type of bag fertilizer to use and how far apart to do this. The canopy is ungodly big. Biggest oak I have ever seen it would be a shame to lose it. It was so thick 30years ago that no ight could get through now it is suffering and the canopy has holes all over you can see through. Please help. Thanks Dave

Loraxguy · May 22, 2011

white oak

How about some photo's--really sounds like the tree is dying back a little each year? What has happen to the root zone of the tree in the last 10 years or so? Construction? grade change? drainage issues? Could be oak wilt I suppose going on? White oaks get the wilt, but they can hang on and on and on before they die. Let's start with some photo's of the tree and photos on the area around the tree----------

unclecrash · May 22, 2011

I will try to post some pics tomorrow. Im not even sure it is a White Oak. It has the rounded leave tips. What are they talking about Live Oak, my oak is 6+ feet in diameter. I will measure it also. It is the last tree to get its leaves each year, It is just now in the past week started getting them. The Oak sits around 6 or 8 feet from the house. So Im sure it has been stressed from this. The house was built probably in the late 60's and the ground has not been disturbed around it other than when the house was put here. The drainage is good lots of sand. I will post pics tomorrow of it and its surroundings. Dave

unclecrash · May 24, 2011

Pictures added

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Here are a few pics remember the leaves are just starting and are only an inch or so long. But she has been declining every year. When my father could afford an arborist about 5 years ago. He never said anything about it having oak wilt. It has fungus on ther top of the limbs. And it gets these fungus things that come out of the grass close to the trunk. I think I saw them in a photo on another site called some kind of mushrooms. They are pink and white. I also have been battling carpenter ants. Any help with fertilizer and any other things I can do to help it myself. Along with a way to combat the ants too. I have not seen any ants yet this year but Im sure they are still around. Please keep your posts in lame man turms. As Im not a tree guy just a normal everyday guy. Thanks Dave.:help: :dizzy:

PS I will get some more pics in a few. and close up of trunk.

flushcut · May 24, 2011

Ants and fungus usually indicate rot.

unclecrash · May 24, 2011

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Im sure there is rot there is some dead wood here and there. But In the 32 years Ive lived here there has never been any big limbs that have snapped off from rot or being weakened. The storm last year with 70mph winds made the tree look like something out of the wizard of oz. It looked like it was alive. The limbs were whipping like ive never seen before.

uttahere2: but nothing come down other than little dead stuff. Here are a couple more pics one of them shows fungus on the trunck with some moss. Another shows where a buddy took off a dead limb about ten years ago and you can see the ant holes. The pic of the grass in center of photo you can see the dark area is a worn down ant trail leading up to the trunk. Which I put an ant bait trap on and I saw one day an ant going into it. Hope I got them but will see in the summer here. Can I just get some 10-10-10 and either run it through a spreader or would it be better to make holes and pour it in around the drip line.

M.D. Vaden · May 24, 2011

If the white stuff is lichen, that may not be a problem. If your oaks get scale like ours do, then ants may simply be feeding on the scale insects.

If the tree is doing poorly, my first question would be about the fertilizer (weed & feed) or herbicide history in the grass area.

:msp_wink:

treeseer · May 24, 2011

chemicals are not the answer for that tree.

lichens and moss on the trunk no problem.

look closely at the base of the tree and take pics if you see holes

no shrooms seen in lawn pic--were they shiny on the top?

only big black ants indicate decay, and that is seldom serious

unclecrash · May 24, 2011

Scale

I am not sure what scale is. But I do remember seeing lots of little round hard spots on the leaves last year. They were brown in color as best I remember. I have put weed killer on for the dandielions I never use to till the neibor across the street neglected his yard. Then he moved out and it is vacant and am being pounded by the dandelions again. I take it thats a no no putting it on. If so I will go back to pulling and just spot hitting them. Or is there something I can use on the dandy's that willnot harm the tree. I was using weed be gone that you connect to the hose. But my pin oaks donot seem to be effected by the weed be gone. They are doing great.

unclecrash · May 24, 2011

treeseer said:
chemicals are not the answer for that tree.

lichens and moss on the trunk no problem.

look closely at the base of the tree and take pics if you see holes

no shrooms seen in lawn pic--were they shiny on the top?

only big black ants indicate decay, and that is seldom serious

I take it the lichens are the light blueish green stuff on the trunk. The things I was calling mushrooms are not coming up yet. They come up close to the base and do not look like a mushroom I know. I will try to find a pic of what im talking about.

unclecrash · Jun 1, 2011

treeseer said:
chemicals are not the answer for that tree.

lichens and moss on the trunk no problem.

look closely at the base of the tree and take pics if you see holes

no shrooms seen in lawn pic--were they shiny on the top?

only big black ants indicate decay, and that is seldom serious

Seems to me when the tree was deep root fed it did pretty good that year and was getting alot of new foilage. It has to be better than sitting here doing nothing. I can find no holes in the trunk. And the ants are carpenter ants the big ones. I am already seeing some of the new foilage wilting. And we have had lots of rain. The last arborist said the tree was stressed really bad from being in around the houses. Is there any organization in oakland county that would come out and take a look at this tree it is a huge tree with very nice shape and I would hate to see it die. I will post a pic of the wilting foilage tomorrow.

rarefish383 · Jun 3, 2011

A fertilizer heavy in nitrogen can make the leaves turn green in a matter of days, but that may not be the answer to the problems. Over fertilizing can do more harm than good, it can burn the root system, every year is probably too much, unless in a rather weak amount, and then the extra aeration may be benificial. If you've been in the drought we've been suffering, deep root feeding may not help at all. You need a good bit of water in the soil to make the fertilizer soluble. Send a soil sample to your local Extension Service and take their advice. If you do deep root feed yourself mix your fertilzer 50-50 with something like a good Michigan Peat Moss. It will keep the granules seperated, and hold moisture, helping to disolve the fert. If you don't mix the fert with something it will sometimes solidify like concrete. Good luck, that's a nice tree, Joe.

rarefish383 · Jun 3, 2011

I was having trouble with my computer a while ago and I only saw a couple pics. Now that I've gotten a little better look, the tree does look to be in a bad decline. Now is not the time to feed it, fall and early spring, as soon as the ground thaws. I'd call my local Dept of Natural Services. Since that is a big tree they may not want to loose it either. Some states have "Champion Trees" that are large mature examples of a species and they like to have them on their register. If you try to make a case for it being a "Champion", kinda like a historic house, you may coerce them to come out. Get a few neighbors to call DNR. They may just tell you it's too late, it often takes a big tree like that a long time to die. As I said, good luck, that's a nice one, Joe.

treesandsurf · Jun 3, 2011

Ignore the suggestions for deep root fertilization for now. You have to get to the root of the problem :msp_razz:.

Did the person who made this recommendation determine that there is a nutrient deficiency? With the decline as you mentioned, there have to be other major factors contributing to the decline of this tree.

I would recommend finding a qualified arborist in your area and hire that person to evaluate the condition of your tree and make recommendations for it's care and document. Somebody that will NOT be hired to do the work. (Certified Arborist of ASCA consulting arborist etc. who specializes in consulting). Check his/her qualifications and ask for referrals. This will save you a ton of money in the long run, vs. deep root feeding nonsense etc.

jp

unclecrash · Jun 3, 2011

rarefish383 said:
A fertilizer heavy in nitrogen can make the leaves turn green in a matter of days, but that may not be the answer to the problems. Over fertilizing can do more harm than good, it can burn the root system, every year is probably too much, unless in a rather weak amount, and then the extra aeration may be benificial. If you've been in the drought we've been suffering, deep root feeding may not help at all. You need a good bit of water in the soil to make the fertilizer soluble. Send a soil sample to your local Extension Service and take their advice. If you do deep root feed yourself mix your fertilzer 50-50 with something like a good Michigan Peat Moss. It will keep the granules seperated, and hold moisture, helping to disolve the fert. If you don't mix the fert with something it will sometimes solidify like concrete. Good luck, that's a nice tree, Joe.

Please clearify what the local extension service is. I have no clue!! I had an arborist out today 30+ years exp. certified ASM ISA ASCA TCIA member. He talked about getting folaige on the tree by vertical mulch fertilization with 4 different fertilizers. Then showed me picks of the mushrooms and they were the ones it gets big kind of wavy pinkish orange and white. He said there is signs of root rot. But his concern was the vert feed then come check it every two to three weeks to see how it takes to the vert feed. Also get some soil samples tested. But said it was too early to tell if it has oak wilt and he would need to go up into the tops to get the leaf samples and send them in. Then Im not sure cannot remember but he said he would like to do something with I think injections into the cambium layer with a syringe later in the season. I do not remember what he was going to put into the syringe. And stated that it would kind of put the tree into a dormant state where it would not grow no foilage but would add to its imune system or nutrients in the tree. Something to this effect. Hope I got this some what correct. But my Dad who will be paying is kind of skeptical. Money is very tight!! Can someone tell me what a fair price just to vert feed it would be for this huge tree. I also have a call into two consulting arborist who I hope one will call me back. There were only three within fifty miles of me. One was a professor at MSU. Here are a couple pics of the leaves. The one is a couple that fell and are wet. But you can see they are lime gree instead of being dark and are small from lack of nutrients. They are a blackish color on the edges

unclecrash · Jun 3, 2011

treesandsurf said:
Ignore the suggestions for deep root fertilization for now. You have to get to the root of the problem :msp_razz:.

Did the person who made this recommendation determine that there is a nutrient deficiency? With the decline as you mentioned, there have to be other major factors contributing to the decline of this tree.

I would recommend finding a qualified arborist in your area and hire that person to evaluate the condition of your tree and make recommendations for it's care and document. Somebody that will NOT be hired to do the work. (Certified Arborist of ASCA consulting arborist etc. who specializes in consulting). Check his/her qualifications and ask for referrals. This will save you a ton of money in the long run, vs. deep root feeding nonsense etc.

jp

No they never really checked the soil or tested the leaves. And I cannot find the old bill. It was some years ago. Check post above as Im not going to do nothing till I get more opinions. I have 2 calls in but last time I called 4 people and not one called back. I am thinking the guy who was just out is going kind of back wards. I would like foilage but I think he should do soil tests first along with maybe having the leaves tested. Maybe he just don't want to test until before he makes some money.

unclecrash · Jun 3, 2011

Pics added

Guys please check last post first page for new pics and info.

@ treesandsurf the arborist that came out was against using deep root with synthetic fertilizer,but sais it needed vert mulch feed for aireation and to put some foliage on it.

treesandsurf · Jun 4, 2011

You can take the samples yourself. Find the extension service, usually connected to a major university or USDA office in your area. Google to find the office, make the call and you will probably get sent in the right direction. Ask them how they want the samples prepared, collect them and bring to office.

Hire a consulting arborist to help you determine the results of the lab tests (I would do a foliage and soil test), and what can be done. This is of course assuming that there is no abiotic conditions that are causing the tree to decline?

jp

unclecrash · Jun 4, 2011

Ok Thanks alot. I have googled the extension service and it appears to be MSU so I will give them a call and see how and where to take samples from. Just hoping the arborist calls me from MSU for consulting this matter. Thanks to those who have tried to help me.