MM, yes.
I call B.S. on Stihl. My dyno doesn't lie. MS 461 is king over MS 660
- Thread starter chadihman
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chadihman
Addicted to ArboristSite
My 461 is still kicking stock 660's azz's. Maybe my 461 is a special one. Porters dont shy away from dyno's. They cant get there hands on them. I take my testing seriously. A muffler modded 660 will for sure outrun a 461.
Ron660
Addicted to ArboristSite
Chad, I have a recently ported 660 if you're still interested in testing.
wigglesworth
Booned
Stock 660's are turds. Stihl really went backwards when they changed from the "0" series. The original 044, 046 and 066 will walk all over their down tuned later models....
They all had different cylinders, different ignitions, different mufflers and carburetors. Not real sure what the engineers were thinking...
They all had different cylinders, different ignitions, different mufflers and carburetors. Not real sure what the engineers were thinking...
Dieselshawn
ArboristSite Operative
I'm sure the reason for the lower power numbers is money driven besides EPA for the stock 660.
2 stroke technology is running out of ways to make better power until someone comes up with a combo that makes a difference. Like possibly direct fuel injection.
We all expect the next new model to have more power and be better than the previous model.
So manufacturers came out with saws of slightly less power knowing full well the logging industry will complain about them. But the loggers continue to buy the derated saws until they reach the point that they've had enough. Either stihl makes more power or a better saw, or go to a different brand.
But after a period of time, many products sold, they're probably figuring its time to up the power a bit.
Then the customer is pleased with the added power over the older model without realizing the model that originally came out in the first place already had that power.
Just my thought.
2 stroke technology is running out of ways to make better power until someone comes up with a combo that makes a difference. Like possibly direct fuel injection.
We all expect the next new model to have more power and be better than the previous model.
So manufacturers came out with saws of slightly less power knowing full well the logging industry will complain about them. But the loggers continue to buy the derated saws until they reach the point that they've had enough. Either stihl makes more power or a better saw, or go to a different brand.
But after a period of time, many products sold, they're probably figuring its time to up the power a bit.
Then the customer is pleased with the added power over the older model without realizing the model that originally came out in the first place already had that power.
Just my thought.
Even the 0 series had their differences, like the 10 mm 044s and D chamber 046s, and some of the MS models will run right with them. I think some of it was "luck of the draw" on the cylinder. It was hard to distinguish the performance of my 046, my brother's 460, and my 044 until I got the 046 ported, and that saw had 175 psi before it was ported. When I use it now I smile, and it is worth the wt difference.
My 044 also easily out ran an 066 (both with 24" bar), so the 0 did not ensure performance either. (I'm sure the bigger saw had more torque for a longer bar)
We also know that dual port muffs went away due to the EPA, not because Stihl wanted to produce a more anemic saw. Ditto carb limiters.
chadihman
Addicted to ArboristSite
Youtube has tons of videos of chainsaw cookie cutting but I haven't found one with the 461 vs the 660
Randy has some on his channel. Probably from last summer or so.
Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ported 660 V ported 461 both same 25'' chain,bar,wood 8 pins.
Both low hrs saws and a tad fat.
And that is why I am not a fan of the 8 pin, it can cut fast, but it is too easy to stop, even in a ported 77 cc saw!
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
Skip the timing advance.
Husqavarna Guy
ArboristSite Operative
The 660 still isn't putting out the power that stihl has it rated at?Here's the 660 vs 660 DP. Some really nice gains with a dual port. This DP was a complete Hyway dual port muffler with the screens removed from both ports and the stupid baffle thing removed from the inside.
CapitaineHaddoc
European Westcoaster
You're absolutely right yes. And it's not something wrong with the dyno, on the other thread about the masterminded 261cm vs the stock one, the stock 261 produce 3.899hp, and Stihl sai 3.9hp (which show how Chad's dyno is accurate!)
Ron660
Addicted to ArboristSite
That was close. I calculated the 660 only 5.8% faster. Might be a bigger difference in larger wood with a longer bar. Nice video.
wigglesworth
Booned
In just the 046 alone, the amount of cylinder changes were staggering. Port timing, shapes, transfer shapes and sizes, combustion chamber shapes and sizes all changed during the years, and not just from manufacturing variance. But in my findings, the earliest 046 cylinders had all the right stuff and were head and shoulders above the rest. But u gotta know what to look for.
The 066 differences are even more nutz. I'd go into detail here, but I'd need a page or so for just the flywheel/coil combinations. The cylinders on em now are just a shadow of what they used to be. Way, way, way different. Again, the stock redlight 066 will absolutely dog walk a stock 660. Ask Randy about the one I built him back in the day....
The 044 secrets I'm keeping to myself.
The muffler covers, I agree. EPA all the way. Carb limiters too, but they didn't just slap limiters on em, lots of internal changes too....
Hedgerow
HACK
Hooray 064!!!!!
wigglesworth
Booned
Don't even get me started on those...
I'm just ecstatic this thread isn't about a 562...
In just the 046 alone, the amount of cylinder changes were staggering. Port timing, shapes, transfer shapes and sizes, combustion chamber shapes and sizes all changed during the years, and not just from manufacturing variance. But in my findings, the earliest 046 cylinders had all the right stuff and were head and shoulders above the rest. But u gotta know what to look for.
The 066 differences are even more nutz. I'd go into detail here, but I'd need a page or so for just the flywheel/coil combinations. The cylinders on em now are just a shadow of what they used to be. Way, way, way different. Again, the stock redlight 066 will absolutely dog walk a stock 660. Ask Randy about the one I built him back in the day....
The 044 secrets I'm keeping to myself.
The muffler covers, I agree. EPA all the way. Carb limiters too, but they didn't just slap limiters on em, lots of internal changes too....
I've got a D shaped 046 jug with long blowdown. I was hoping it was the early one. I've had several 066 jugs and all of them had different port timing.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
In just the 046 alone, the amount of cylinder changes were staggering. Port timing, shapes, transfer shapes and sizes, combustion chamber shapes and sizes all changed during the years, and not just from manufacturing variance. But in my findings, the earliest 046 cylinders had all the right stuff and were head and shoulders above the rest. But u gotta know what to look for.
The 066 differences are even more nutz. I'd go into detail here, but I'd need a page or so for just the flywheel/coil combinations. The cylinders on em now are just a shadow of what they used to be. Way, way, way different. Again, the stock redlight 066 will absolutely dog walk a stock 660. Ask Randy about the one I built him back in the day....
The 044 secrets I'm keeping to myself.
The muffler covers, I agree. EPA all the way. Carb limiters too, but they didn't just slap limiters on em, lots of internal changes too....
Who are you, and what do you know about saws?
Short blowdown is the secret to a great running 046/460.
