Knotless rigging (caribeaners)?

[outofmytree]

Again.....the wrap you are taking around the limb or block is not lowering the load placed on the biner. It does not matter if it's a block or a limb or if you wrapped the rope dozen times. What you are doing only reduces the load on the biner if the piece can not rotate.

In Ekka's example the load on the biner is being reduced. In yours it is not.

What we are talking about is basic physics and it's important that it is understood, especially by those teaching others. The safety factors built into the gear we use lets us get away with doing things we do not understand but every now and then it comes back to bite one of us on the ass.

Carabiners have a greatly reduced strength when side loaded. It varies based on the design of the biner but loading a biner while it is pressed up against a curved surface greatly reduces it strength.

I use biners and rope interchangeably....often in the same tree and within minutes of each other. I almost always have six slings with six biners hanging on my saddle. If it's just a trim maybe only three. Speedlining is really cool and a practice I've been using since 1989 or so.

I use srt a lot to ascend on a rope that is tied around a limb using a running bowline. Often the limb is only 4 inches or so in diameter. Do you see the importance of knowing what is happening in the running bowline Vs a biner used in the same application? I know guys that will use a biner is such an application and they have never had a biner failure. Do you think their lack of a failure influences my decision to use a running bowline? It doesn't.

Be safe and live long!

I agree the load is reduced in Ekka diagram.

I did not suggest there was any reduction in my own technique I simply drew it so you could see exactly how it was being done and dissect it for comment. The two wraps or occasionally three is for grip on the branch not to reduce krab fatigue.

Once again you talk about side loading as though it was proven to damage the krab at ANY load rather than any EXTREME load. Numbers are really important here mate. Can you find any reliable data that talks about the load required to induce even the smallest distortion in a steel krab?

Most important point. I appreciate all the information posted so far. One of the best parts of a trade forum is the ability to get many different opinions on the same thing.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

So what's the reason for this knot?

An unskilled groundman, or a groundman in heavy gloves, can untie this not with ease.

On the rare occasion that I have to retie a load or change balance/load direction, I just have to reach out and pull the tail.

It can be ties with a very long tail, without having to pass the tail through the rest of the knot for proper dress/set.

 

[TreeTopKid]

However, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

And this configuration takes a lot of heat off the biner, do you not agree?

I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.

 

[(WLL)]

I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.

looks OK too me as-well. remember to used a spliced line to lower the risk and maintain more strength

 

[TreeTopKid]

looks OK too me as-well. remember to used a spliced line to lower the risk and maintain more strength

Will too! I ordered my ready spliced velocity today BTW didn't want to get the SJ and have nothing to play on it with! ( remembering what you said about the Corvette and the skinny spare wheels!).

 

[pdqdl]

Ekka !

Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.

And you will be reducing the load on the 'biner. And it's not ANY harder, because you're right there clipping it to a rope anyway. Just pick the best one available.


Oooh! I wish I knew how to edit your drawings !

 

[outofmytree]

Ekka !

Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.

And you will be reducing the load on the 'biner. And it's not ANY harder, because you're right there clipping it to a rope anyway. Just pick the best one available.


Oooh! I wish I knew how to edit your drawings !

How about you draw one of your own. I think i know what you mean but i would like to see for sure before comment.

 

[Ekka]

Ekka !

Clip that carabiner (shown in your drawing re-posted above) to the loop around the standing line, and you will be doing what I have been suggesting all along.

And you will be reducing the load on the 'biner. And it's not ANY harder, because you're right there clipping it to a rope anyway. Just pick the best one available.


Oooh! I wish I knew how to edit your drawings !

LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!

 

[Raymond]

LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!

LL Yeah but now you're getting to the point were a bowline or running bowline would be damn near just as quick.

 

[John464]

LL Yeah but now you're getting to the point were a bowline or running bowline would be damn near just as quick.

Much quicker than that!

 

[Raymond]

Much quicker than that!

Beside I find myself switching end of the rope to often.

And the first time I would have to run to the top of a tree and unstick a biner, would be the last.

 

[outofmytree]

LOL, like this, great idea ... that's another skinned cat!

Food for thought. Got an e.Maculata removal tomorrow with lots of rigging required. The test of good rigging techniques imo, is how well you can do them when you're hot and tired and just want to go home. This should be interesting.

 

[tree MDS]

Ya all may pry my old taughtline from my fingers one day soon...but try that with the bowline and we got us a fight! lol.

I'll bet I can tie a bowline in less than five seconds no prob.

 

[John464]

When the block of wood gets laid on the ground it's not going to be very easy to undo either.

yup anything more than one wrap will sometimes require two men on the ground just to get it untied. One guy lifting the branch/log and the other untieing. Or cuting it small enough to untie the wraps.

This thread is a lesson in new age techniques slowing you down.

And whoever described that krab as becoming a Pringle Potatoe Chip was a good description. Ya'll krab riggers once you pop you can't stop even if it means slowing production and increasing risk.

 

[teamtree]

I know this is dumb...but what is a "Krab"?

I use nylon loop runners and a slideline carabiner in tandem with a small pulley and a climbing rope for small rigging.

When the wood gets a bit bigger we go with bull ropes and knots. The thing with knotless rigging is I can have three set ups ready to go and the guys on the ground can just unclip and send the rope up. It is pretty fast when you are working in a good rhythm.

Depending on my ground guy the knotless works great for those not able to understand the knot they are trying to untie.

I would not say there are any great efficiency from one method to another.

I can tie a bowline about as fast as anyone else.

 

[TreeTopKid]

Ya all may pry my old taughtline from my fingers one day soon...but try that with the bowline and we got us a fight! lol.

I'll bet I can tie a bowline in less than five seconds no prob.

Bet I can tie a timber hitch in three!:biggrinbounce2:

 

[TreeTopKid]

I'm liking this a lot I'm going to try it tomorrow. Looks super fast.

I used it today but the biggest timber was 8 inches so it wasn't a real test. I have to say the biner didn't look like it was being tugged about to much. It was nice to try something different. I didn't like using my nice spliced eye rope for rigging though so quickly reverted back to usual business on the correct rope....... & timber hitch.

 

[Ekka]

So many one eyed people, make sure you dont hire them, limited mindset=limited skillset. :monkey:

 

[LTREES]

so many one eyed people, make sure you dont hire them, limited mindset=limited skillset. :monkey:

lol.......oh it hurts.......

 

[tree MDS]

Bet I can tie a timber hitch in three!:biggrinbounce2:

You sure we're talking about the same knot??

How many "tucks" do you put on your timber??