Lightning/Tree pics needed
- Thread starter treeseer
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Thanks tocold; that shagbark sure got shaggier after the strike!
Jason,with that tree's form, restoration looks like a challenge. What is the speceis, and did you tap the bark to see how much is detached?
Jason,with that tree's form, restoration looks like a challenge. What is the speceis, and did you tap the bark to see how much is detached?
The bark hasnt changed a great deal in 3 years,its just becoming detached lately,saying that most trees are stressed here at the moment due to low rainfall.it might hang in there with a decent winter.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
lightning and bark
"Large sections of the bark can be ripped apart by steam explosions from a lightning strike."
Above is from an earlier post, (by Ekka; http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/understandinglightning.htm ) that disagrees with the post by treeseer "Did you know it's the shockwave (acoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work."
I've been on a few hundred fires that were started by lightning. Not an expert but I always thought the reason trees were getting blown apart was the moisture inside the wood cells was heated to exploding temps and they just blew apart in mass.
Anybody else want to jump in on this sound versus exploding wood cell controversy? This is really serious.
"Large sections of the bark can be ripped apart by steam explosions from a lightning strike."
Above is from an earlier post, (by Ekka; http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/understandinglightning.htm ) that disagrees with the post by treeseer "Did you know it's the shockwave (acoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work."
I've been on a few hundred fires that were started by lightning. Not an expert but I always thought the reason trees were getting blown apart was the moisture inside the wood cells was heated to exploding temps and they just blew apart in mass.
Anybody else want to jump in on this sound versus exploding wood cell controversy? This is really serious.
The researcher is the same: Kim Coder wrote both articles. The one referencing the acoustic shock wave is from 2004, the article in the above link is from 1996. So it would seem the shockwave theory is the most recent.
But practically speaking, what is the difference to the tree? Detached bark is detached bark, right? Consider they are simultaneous, can we know for sure?
Jason, I'd suspect that the bark on your tree got detached by the lightning, but is just now coming off because it is decaying. Drought's bound to be a factor, sure--it sounds like trees are having a tough time without enough water.
EngineerDude
ArboristSite Operative
Yeah, as it relates to the just the question of which of two different explanations for the bark coming off is the real one, it really doesn't matter. Either way, the bark's still off.
But then, as it relates to other problems with the tree, I guess it does, or at least could, make a difference. For example, I'd think the shockwave phenomenon might have a greater impact on splits in the trunk.
Assuming it's real, I'm envisioning this shockwave moving radially away from the path the electricity chooses through the tree, in all directions, and generally perpendicular to to the direction the electricity is flowing.
This is pretty interesting stuff that would seem to have possible implications in terms of much greater inspection required any time even a small crack is detected after lightning.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well.
It was also said that there is very little difference (if any) if the tree bark or tree is wet.
In theory if the tree is wet then you may have a path of lessor resistence and the electricity travel on the out side. But that is not the case.
The shockwave theory also explains the cracks at different angles.
I'm in the shockwave bucket.
Oh, by the way. I have never ever seen a palm with bark blasted off ... ever. Perhaps the shockwave effect doesn't work as is all cambium! Yet the palm certainly has more water and if rapid expansion from heating were the case these should explode like a pressure cooker.
Shockwave for me.
PS: Ever had lightening strike real close? The noise is something else.
It was also said that there is very little difference (if any) if the tree bark or tree is wet.
In theory if the tree is wet then you may have a path of lessor resistence and the electricity travel on the out side. But that is not the case.
The shockwave theory also explains the cracks at different angles.
I'm in the shockwave bucket.
Oh, by the way. I have never ever seen a palm with bark blasted off ... ever. Perhaps the shockwave effect doesn't work as is all cambium! Yet the palm certainly has more water and if rapid expansion from heating were the case these should explode like a pressure cooker.
Shockwave for me.
PS: Ever had lightening strike real close? The noise is something else.
Once we were fiberglassing a boat in drydock when a storm blew in. We rushed to cover the boat and it got hit as the boat's owner was tying down the last corner of the tarp. Really eerie sound. We had to rush him to the hospital--he was turning colors and his heart was beating like a snare drum.
He came out of it ok--miraculous, really.
Coder's speaking here http://www.floridaisa.org/pdf/Lightning_brochureColor-final.pdf
should be interesting to hear what he says. I'm still in both the temperature and shockwave camps--both feet firmly planted.
Good point by EngineerDude--if the xylem is cracked even a little, that deserves a close look. Those cracks are a motorway for decay, as Schwarze would say.
Eric, if the current goes down the outside and the palm's water is on the inside, could that be why they don't burst?
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great
I see you've got a session too.
Make sure you give the ole euc oil a plug.
Any chance of same for vegemite? :hmm3grin2orange:
Hey, what happened to the fibreglass boat?
I see you've got a session too.
Make sure you give the ole euc oil a plug.
Any chance of same for vegemite? :hmm3grin2orange:
Hey, what happened to the fibreglass boat?
EngineerDude
ArboristSite Operative
Vegemite!!! Oh, man, haven't thought of that stuff for awhile, although with the way it tastes, I wonder how it could have slipped out of mind.
I know it's like the national food, or close to it. But given the taste, it seems to me that reaching that plateau can only be explained by just plain brilliant marketing. That's the only explanation I can come up with for how the yeast by-product that lines beer fermentation tanks which the beer maker would need to spend money to dispose of can instead be packaged and sold. Make money instead of spend money... brilliant!
Maybe it tastes better once you're good 'n pissed?
Hey, by the way, on the topic of pissed, I got real partial to VB in the pubs in Sydney. Straying a bit off topic here, but what do you guys drink after a long hot day on the job?
OK, back on topic, I'm looking to forward to more discussion on lightning after this Florida seminar.
I just wanted to share what I do with trees that are hit. That waitandsee stuff seldom works for me--or the tree. It was nice of them to let me in.
I may mention the euc oil. I may not. These are scientists who may not appreciate such a nonstandard product. There are issues with mentioning strategies that are not govt-approved. But then, I think it works. Yeah, what the heck, never hurts to tell the truth eh? Hmm...
Boat was fine; the charge followed the tarp on the outside. Hey, does that explain what happens and does not happen to palms?
booboo
ArboristSite Operative
OK, back to lightning pics...except that I didn't take any pics.
I looked at a large sugar maple earlier in the summer that had been hit and also got hammered by caterpillars this spring. The only sign of the lightning hit was some bark blown off about 3/4 to the top. The caterpillars had completely defoliated it and it was just popping out a second growth of leaves. The owner was wondering about removal or deadwood/crown reduction. We opted for wait and see...I felt that the tree was stressed enough between the caterpillars and the lightning hit without adding pruning. We'll take another look this year and either prune or remove depending on what it looks like. I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage.
Correct me if I'm wrong but...I've always been told (and what I've seen backs it up) that among the variables that come into play for lightning damage is if the bark is wet, i.e. it's raining hard, at the time of the strike. The pics of the oak with no apparent damage except to the ground and roots by the base look like the charge travelled down the exterior of the tree and was dissipated into the ground. One the other hand, I've seen pines that were totally exploded from the inside out, kind of like the pic of the splintered norway, but worse. With the sugar maple I looked at, I thought it was odd that the only visible damage was was to the bark towards the top, my guess was that it some of the charge travelled down the outside of the tree and there's not too much internal damage. That was part of the reason we went with "wait and see", I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees. If it doesn't survive, it's an easy removal, big drop zone, maybe even take it whole and avoid climbing it altogether.
Flame away...
I looked at a large sugar maple earlier in the summer that had been hit and also got hammered by caterpillars this spring. The only sign of the lightning hit was some bark blown off about 3/4 to the top. The caterpillars had completely defoliated it and it was just popping out a second growth of leaves. The owner was wondering about removal or deadwood/crown reduction. We opted for wait and see...I felt that the tree was stressed enough between the caterpillars and the lightning hit without adding pruning. We'll take another look this year and either prune or remove depending on what it looks like. I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage.
Correct me if I'm wrong but...I've always been told (and what I've seen backs it up) that among the variables that come into play for lightning damage is if the bark is wet, i.e. it's raining hard, at the time of the strike. The pics of the oak with no apparent damage except to the ground and roots by the base look like the charge travelled down the exterior of the tree and was dissipated into the ground. One the other hand, I've seen pines that were totally exploded from the inside out, kind of like the pic of the splintered norway, but worse. With the sugar maple I looked at, I thought it was odd that the only visible damage was was to the bark towards the top, my guess was that it some of the charge travelled down the outside of the tree and there's not too much internal damage. That was part of the reason we went with "wait and see", I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees. If it doesn't survive, it's an easy removal, big drop zone, maybe even take it whole and avoid climbing it altogether.
Flame away...
"The owner was wondering about removal or deadwood/crown reduction."
You were right to hold off on removing live wood. Sell deadwooding combined with a risk assessment.
" I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage. I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees."
No need to fear, if you inspect as you ascend. Tap the bark to listen for hollow spots where the bark is detached. Measure the width of these spots, removing the detached bark, and post photos of them. As long as you do not see deep cracks the structure should be way safe to climb, expecially a sugar maple.
It'll be great to see those pics!
You were right to hold off on removing live wood. Sell deadwooding combined with a risk assessment.
" I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage. I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees."
No need to fear, if you inspect as you ascend. Tap the bark to listen for hollow spots where the bark is detached. Measure the width of these spots, removing the detached bark, and post photos of them. As long as you do not see deep cracks the structure should be way safe to climb, expecially a sugar maple.
It'll be great to see those pics!
spreaderman
ArboristSite Operative
lightning tree
I took these pictures in my area back in 2002... I didn't think it was feasable to bring it back to life .....I would have liked to have had a high speed camera with different angles set up to watch it as the lightning hit..... I bet it was a sight to see... and hear
It is Located in Cloverdale Alabama. I hope this helps... ENJOY.
I took these pictures in my area back in 2002... I didn't think it was feasable to bring it back to life .....I would have liked to have had a high speed camera with different angles set up to watch it as the lightning hit..... I bet it was a sight to see... and hear
It is Located in Cloverdale Alabama. I hope this helps... ENJOY.
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awesome! I definitely want to use pic #1, if you have it in a big enough version to look good in a ppt. pm me your name if you want attribution.
I don't think Humpty Dumpty can put that tree back together again.
I don't think Humpty Dumpty can put that tree back together again.
spreaderman
ArboristSite Operative
big enough to look good on ppt
I found the old floppy disk that they are on ...Will try to put them on a dvd .... and send them to you larger.
I found the old floppy disk that they are on ...Will try to put them on a dvd .... and send them to you larger.
spreaderman
ArboristSite Operative
lightning tree 2
Since there is interest I wanted to add another picture. The pictures DO NOT do it justice. Several large pieces of the tree weighing over 100 lbs were blown over 200 feet way. Look in picture no. 5 under the tree on the left, you can see a piece there, also pieces in the middle background are also visible....
Since there is interest I wanted to add another picture. The pictures DO NOT do it justice. Several large pieces of the tree weighing over 100 lbs were blown over 200 feet way. Look in picture no. 5 under the tree on the left, you can see a piece there, also pieces in the middle background are also visible....
