low-impact logging

[sawnazi]

I am starting a logging business speacilizing in low impact logging with 4wheelers and small logging arches the max width going in and out of the forest is 5 feet ive got alot of people interested in this practice but im not sure how to seal the deal on it or if this is just a new fad and will die out soon i would like yor thoughts on this thanks

 

[perchhauler]

I've logged with horses for years in Pa., and no its no fad thats going to fade.. Landowners who are looking at the future of their woodlot and timber like the idea, its common sense low impact logging saves alot of young growth, select cut, thinning, worst first makes sense to go low impact.. Clear cutting an area to build is better to go with big machines to make more time..

 

[Dalmatian90]

In my area (Connecticut) there are a lot of various "land trusts" as well as municipal conservation land.

I would think these would be a prime pool of potential customers. Of course many of them may be interested in the combination of a professional forester who plans the cut, combined with a low-impact logger. If you talk to them and find out if they're already using a certain forester that would probably be a good person to talk to.

Many of these are very sensitive to "looks." Back in 1991 I worked for the town cutting trails on our first bit of conservation land.

Ten years later...over which time I had nothing to do with the property other then occasionally walking or riding it for my own pleasure the town had parts logged.

And I had multiple people complaining to ME. If I was getting an earful when all I had done was work there one summer in college, I can just imagine what the town politicos were getting

(One of our local land trusts is even sponsored by the local forest landowners association that encourages good timber and firewood practices)

And even if you don't get business with the land trusts, if you can make a good impression to their boards / leadership I'd suspect a lot of them are the types of folks who would be interested in low-impact on their own personal properties.

 

[Greystoke]

You'll have to add one of these babies to your lineup if business takes off.

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[perchhauler]

As far as private land goes, I've found you'll get work when conventional loggers wont.. There are alot of landowners out there who wont sell timber til they find someone to do it low impact....

 

[cantoo]

Got a buddy who sold a bunch of trees to a commercial logging company. The company had bought a bunch of bushes in the area. They started a few miles down the road from my buddy's place. They came in with a crew and a big timberjack skidder, hours later everyone of the owners backed out of the deal. Way to much damge to the trails, bush and remaining trees. I never seen the damage first hand but I did hear from a few neighbours. I did tell the guys that sometimes you do get what you pay/sell for. They all sold to this company because they were the highest priced but time is money so they move fast and cut or runover whatever is in the way. Now I'm thinking I could likely come in with my wheeler and Steiners and make some money. Of course I wouldn't pay anywhere near what the speed demons were offering.
This is the type of customer you would have to target to make the money you will need.

 

[jnl502]

me and the wife has thought about the same thing. kinda like a forest management type of deal. go in with a 4wheeler or small 4x4 tractor or one of those small struck crawlers. the price of timber these days makes me think twice. have heard it is worth more as firewood and that market down here in the south is hit or miss depending on the weather. i have no plans to start a woodlot with people calling last minute because it is about to turn cold. anyway back to logging. it would be hard to drag trees of a large size and then a way to on a trailor or truck with a side loader and get them to the mill. don't give me wrong i think it would be great to do this i mean the selective cutting but is there profit in it? this is just my thinking and if i'm wrong i would like to be set strait.
jnl

 

[slowp]

There are some loggers, who can do "low impact" with regular size machinery. The best one I've ever worked with did a thinning on some private ground. The landowner told him her desired outcome and then let him choose the trees to cut. He knew to leave the good trees but also could cut those needed to work his machinery around. He did a beautiful job.

Not all production loggers are bad. I should think that using such a small machine would limit the size of logs you are getting out, and limit your market. But that's a West Coast thing, maybe it doesn't matter there.

 

[joesawer]

Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor.
Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.

 

[redprospector]

Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor.
Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.

You hit the nail on the head with this one.
I do private land all the time. I charge the land owner to remove their trees. I can do "low impact" if they're willing to pay for it.

I was talking to our state forester yesterday about a project. We were discussing some of my concerns about the price cap they had on it. He asked me if I had considered the value of the log's into my figuring. I told him that if I did that, I'd have to charge extra. Log's aren't worth much here anymore. I used to make pretty good money selling logs. Now they're just a "value added" product. Last I checked it's about $200 a thousand delivered to the mill, and it's close to 100 miles to that mill.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor.
Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.

Well said. I've been pecking away at a "low impact" job for a couple of years but I wouldn't call it logging. More like land clearing. The property owner bought eighty acres of second growth and is slowly turning it into a park. They do a little every year and they have a clear vision of how they want things to look and how they want things done. They used a consulting forester who also has a good knowledge of logging and land remediation. That really helps me do the job they want done.

If the OP wants to try low impact work he'd do well to consider charging by the job and not depend on the volume of timber to make any money. If you do a good job the word will spread fast...same with a bad job. Low impact is a popular concept out here. The land owners on both sides of where I'm working have watched the process and now they're having the same thing done to their property. I hooked them up with a couple of reputable guys (I'm semi-retired, remember?) and they're pleased with the results.

To the OP I'd say just be very clear as to what the property owner wants. Get it in writing if you can. Low impact will still leave some visual changes and that can't be helped. Even low impact work might be considered ugly by an uninformed person. Make sure the property owner understands that before you start.

 

[slowp]

To the OP I'd say just be very clear as to what the property owner wants. Get it in writing if you can. Low impact will still leave some visual changes and that can't be helped. Even low impact work might be considered ugly by an uninformed person. Make sure the property owner understands that before you start.

If they are totally new to the woods, it helps to show them logged areas you or somebody else has done. People just don't understand that logging, even careful logging, just doesn't look pretty right away. They do not understand slash, fresh stumps and smashed brush. They do not understand that you can't fall a tree just anywhere. We're lucky here. It only takes a year for nature to cover it up and make everything green again.

If they want 95% low impact, I'd suggest going helicopter.

 

[Gologit]

If they want 95% low impact, I'd suggest going helicopter.

LOL...I suggested that to them (they have the bucks) but when I told them what it would cost they wisely decided to spend the money on a new Kubota with a Farmi winch setup instead. That thing is a BLAST to run, especially when you're used to skidding with a 6. Kinda like driving a kiddy car but very smooth and quiet. Doesn't tear up the ground like a Cat, either.

 

[fmaglin]

There are some loggers, who can do "low impact" with regular size machinery. The best one I've ever worked with did a thinning on some private ground. The landowner told him her desired outcome and then let him choose the trees to cut. He knew to leave the good trees but also could cut those needed to work his machinery around. He did a beautiful job.

Not all production loggers are bad. I should think that using such a small machine would limit the size of logs you are getting out, and limit your market. But that's a West Coast thing, maybe it doesn't matter there.

Well said Slowp. Here in the midwest you can hire amish folks that will skid your logs out with horses, but you need to do your math before you agree to hire them. Most of them would work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot and on the average, they will only be able to skid out about 6000 board foot in a day. If the trees were average size, you can do all right; however, smaller logs that would sell as blocking would be better left for firewood, and really large trees would slow things down to less than 6000 board foot/day. Someone that would carefully use a skidder would make the bottom line a lot more profitable. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[floyd]

I did low impact logging for years. Horselogging.

Niche market. I never tried to compete with machines.

 

[KeyStep]

I started with the idea of doing only low-impact logging with an ATV for myself and that got me to build a metal skidding sled. It works well when you want to get a sawlog out from a romote location but overall for pulp or firewood it is not a reality and not worth the time. For the isolated low volume of just a full cords or for sawlogs for a landowner it ok but not really anything you can consider for a business

I soon moved on to a Farmi-winch on a 45HP tractor and then added a metavic log loader with an articulated trailer that turn on dime. I can winch logs from trails up to 165 ft and also have a 85 ft extension so overall my reach is nearly 250ft Everything is low-impact and you really can't tell the woodlot has been logged in one to two years following a harvest. Overall, this is not competitive will high volume logging but I do over a 300 full cords of wood a year. I also purchased my own truck and trailer for hauling but I would still say I keep everything small so I can keep the risks low. The same equipment can be used around the sawmill and other parts of the farm as well. I also bought everything used and over the past few years have been able to pick up some good equipment.

 

[perchhauler]

Its not rocket science, just simple common sense, low Impact logging you're not going to move wood as fast as with a big machine so its going to cost more due to production time, however you can move just as much wood just slower... A team of horses are a better bet than some small machines as they'll move more wood than say a four wheeler, you just have to buck bigger trees log length to get em out.. I agree I've know some conventional loggers with big skidders who are very careful, but at best you have to put a road through for that skidder, and you save alot of young growth doing it with horses, not all machine loggers rip and tear, but with a large skidder you cant avoid taking more young growth with you.. I know alot of horse loggers who have made a good living at it for years, do a good job and it speaks for itself..

 

[Dalmatian90]

Well said Slowp. Here in the midwest you can hire amish folks that will skid your logs out with horses, but you need to do your math before you agree to hire them. Most of them would work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot and on the average, they will only be able to skid out about 6000 board foot in a day. If the trees were average size, you can do all right; however, smaller logs that would sell as blocking would be better left for firewood, and really large trees would slow things down to less than 6000 board foot/day.

I'd just like to pick on that for a moment, because maybe I don't understand something...or there can be different circumstances.

"...work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot"

1) I'm assuming a typo -- it's actually 9-1/2 to 10 cents per board foot...I can't see the Amish working for $6/ day.

2) Is that the actual rate (you pay them a dime for every board foot scaled at the landing (I presume)), or is that they usually charge $600/day regardless of how much they bring out, and usually that works back to be 10 cents per board foot?

If it is an daily rate regardless of production, I can see it always being a concern.

If I'm a logging contractor I've budgeted in for my truck and driver time to be supplied each day with X loads the horses can't make that rate, I can see me losing money having the truck sitting waiting.

But if I'm the landowner and I'm just having the logs brought to a landing, and I'm only calling a truck to transport when there is a load ready for the mill...what's the problem as long as I pay by production and not daily?

 

[slowp]

I'm not even sure what the definition of low impact is. I consider some skyline thinnings to be low impact, when compared to carving trails in steep ground for a cat.

I guess it is up to the landowner to figure out their definition. Do they just care how it will look when done? Do they want future entries?

My friends also got their road system improved.

 

[fmaglin]

I'd just like to pick on that for a moment, because maybe I don't understand something...or there can be different circumstances.

"...work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot"

1) I'm assuming a typo -- it's actually 9-1/2 to 10 cents per board foot...I can't see the Amish working for $6/ day.

2) Is that the actual rate (you pay them a dime for every board foot scaled at the landing (I presume)), or is that they usually charge $600/day regardless of how much they bring out, and usually that works back to be 10 cents per board foot?

If it is an daily rate regardless of production, I can see it always being a concern.

If I'm a logging contractor I've budgeted in for my truck and driver time to be supplied each day with X loads the horses can't make that rate, I can see me losing money having the truck sitting waiting.

But if I'm the landowner and I'm just having the logs brought to a landing, and I'm only calling a truck to transport when there is a load ready for the mill...what's the problem as long as I pay by production and not daily?

Yup, it's 9-1/2 cents to 10 cents per board foot. Some will charge $400 per day working by the day, but don't think their day hours are the same as yours. They have to hire a driver with a stock trailer to bring them on the job and pick them up Though their day may start at 7:00AM they may not arrive at the site until 8:30 depending on how far the job is. Usually they roll up at 4:00PM so they are ready when the driver arrives to bring them home. It's best to hire them by the board foot for these reasons.

As far as the landowner, let me quote you some figures from a recent job. I cut and scaled 12000BF of Ash that was mostly small timber. By this I mean there were very few logs that could be marketed for grade lumber.The bigger trees would yield one log about 14" on the small end and there were many logs that were only 12". The land owner agreed to pay 10 cents a bd ft to skid the logs with a team to a landing. The trees being small, ended up being sold to a mill that only bought small trees for blocking. They brought a low price which included them being trucked to the mill. In this case, the owner wanted to sell the small trees due to some tree diseases that are destroying Ash trees, and I can't blame him for doing so. The trees could have all been skid in a day using a skidder at a cost to him of 6 cents a bd ft which in this case would have netted him an additional $480. In some cases I can see using horses to get the job done, and I have personally done so myself where terrain wasn't feasible to use a skidder; however, in my opinion, I just don't feel that for the above described job it was the best choice.