Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?

[Jim Timber]

I've got 84 acres that needs thinning. I'm looking at roughly 5 cords per acre of 10" or less oak and maple, and moving some larger diameter basswood (20-24" DBH) and aspen (max 16" DBH).

I have moved some bigger trees with my atv and log arch, but understand that this is way slow for a commercial venture. It is possible for me to get all the trees I need gone to my landing with this method.

I'm wondering if I used a bigger skidsteer (like a Cat 262 or 272) with a grapple to stage wood, and then hauled it on a mid sized trailer to the landing and used skidsteer to stack it - could I pull this off?

I have enough room to get a skidsteer around in the woods, but I don't want to make trails big enough for a traditional skidder or fellerbuncher. I also want to keep the job in-house. Time isn't the biggest factor either. If it takes 6 months, that's ok by me. I have experience felling trees in this stand, so I'm not going in blind. I don't have experience doing what I'm doing using real machinery. I've cleared a couple acres already without any mechanized help, and those were done over a few days each. Not having to manhandle the wood should substantially speed things up. I can clear cut an acre in a few hours, which sounds in-line with what I've seen guys here post.

Total estimated volume to be removed is 400 cords (not all at once - this thinning could take 4-5 years depending on how much time I devote to it), but I haven't done the basal calculations on-site yet. Some areas will be clear cut too, so there will be bigger wood, but not hundreds of cords of it. I plan to stage things in saw logs and cull/pulp, then have timber buyers come in and bid when it's on the ground. Cull will either be cut for firewood (processed later) or sold to a pulp mill to generate cash flow.

I'm not looking to get rich, but I would like to keep the profit from the wood (rather than hiring a pro). I'm not afraid of long hours or hard work. A/C cab is a must - I'll plug away all summer long if that's what it takes.

 

[slowp]

I know nothing about skid steers. I have learned that the secret to "low impact" or in other words, not tearing things up to badly depends on the skill of the machine operator. There are people who can operate a D-9 in a tight stand of trees and do less damage than an unskilled "Gotta get it out fast" guy on a small skidder. Size doesn't matter as much as operator skill. What is your skill level?

 

[Jim Timber]

I can drive just about anything with an engine with at least a moderate level of finesse. Several years ago I even had my learners permit for planes (9/11 happened so I never got my license).

If I can turn 2-3 cords a day, it'll be fine as far as speed goes. That should allow me to cut for a few hours in the morning, bunch and shuffle the wood mid-day, and then clean up/spread the tops late afternoon - or something to that effect.

I've also looked at the guys doing this work with tree shears, and that's another option.

The power companies here are all using ASV's for right of way maintenance. I don't believe they use anything bigger, just cut the trunks up if they weigh too much.

 

[Gologit]

For "low impact" logging a skid steer wouldn't be my first choice. If your ground isn't steep think about a small farm type tractor with big low pressure tires and maybe one of those hobby logger winches like Farmi makes.

Slowp said it right...a good operator is key. Knowing when to straight drag, knowing how to turn, knowing when to yo-yo with the winch, knowing when and how to use turn trees...these things will come to you in time.

And if by low impact you mean absolutely no soil disturbance, slash, or scarred skid roads...give it another thought. Low impact doesn't mean no impact.

 

[Jim Timber]

It's almost pancake flat, and the areas which are hilly can be dealt with from below.

Low impact in my use of the term has more to do with not crushing or wiping out more than absolutely necessary to get the targeted trees out. Soil compaction isn't a big concern, and much of the forest floor is already choked out from a closed canopy, so tearing up grass isn't an issue. I still have some 20' wide travel corridors from when Potlatch last cut in it, and more of those is what I'm most interested in preventing. Getting wood out on existing trails is possible with smaller equipment. Those trails are already pretty mudded up, so I'll be adding slash as it becomes available.

Getting a tractor capable of lifting what one of these skidsteers will puts it well out of the compact size class. Otherwise, I'd agree a tractor would be a good choice for skidding. I can drag trees with my atv, I need something more capable for stacking the wood. I know it won't be ideal. I have other uses for the skidsteer once the thinning is done.

 

[lmbrman]

What is the average diameter and height of the trees to be removed? Reason I ask is 10cords per acre would be a light commercial thinning here and quite saleable. I understand you want it 'in house' though and I respect that.

Slowp and Gologit have it right about impact. Operator is key, but skidsteer can make a mess.

 

[lmbrman]

Sorry Jim, almost forgot to answer 'am I nuts'- well, I don think so, but that doesn't mean much. Nuts to me is buying a 'load of logs' to turn into cookies and time your cuts.

-dave

 

[slowp]

Well, if you want almost no impact, you could get a helicopter...but watch them because a bad pilot can knock tree tops out.

 

[Jim Timber]

Most of what's coming out will be in the 6-10" and up to 40' crowns (I've gotten up 25' in a climbing tree stand without cutting any limbs on my 15" oak trees). It's all pretty straight and doesn't have much for lower branches.

Potlatch owned it for 50+ years before me (that's as far back as the records were kept), and they have pulled 20+" trees out about 35-40 years ago based on what's left of the stumps. I have what looks like the remains of a yarder anchor cable in the old landing. Sadly, I haven't gotten anywhere with them requesting the history of the parcel. We know they did some cutting in the 90's after a tornado came through, but aside from that, they haven't been in there since the 70's.

I don't think I'll have more than 5 cords per acre outside of the areas I'm clear cutting - that's probably not going to exceed 10 acres if I even do the additional clear cuts I'm contemplating. I know I'll have 6 acres which should be 10 cords each (I'm clearing a rifle range), but beyond that it's just going to be to put some daylight in the canopy and give my better trees room while taking out my hockey sticks.

I'll need to take out a loan to get this project underway. I'll be buying a skidsteer as part of it, but that'll be needed for my sawmilling operations too: which is another reason not to get a tractor.

Heli logging is out of the budget. Fuel and pilot rental would exceed my profit margins.

 

[madhatte]

Don't forget that the goal of a thin -- either precommercial or commercial -- is improvement to the RESIDUAL stand. Damage to leave trees is far worse than missing a take tree. Have a look at this, particularly the diagrams on P. 8.

 

[Gologit]

Well, if you want almost no impact, you could get a helicopter...but watch them because a bad pilot can knock tree tops out.

True...but he gets yelled at when that happens. Or...if he knocks the tops out with a blade tip he usually gets eulogized.

 

[Jim Timber]

I've been studying up on this stuff since before I even closed on my land. I also have a neighbor up north who teaches forestry at the college in town, and he's been somewhat mentoring me on my habitat/timber work. So when I start working on the thinning part, I'll have him come check a couple acres of my progress and make sure I'm not doing bad things I'm unaware of.

Thanks for the link Madhatte, I've seen some guides like that before, but seeing more takes on it is good for a noob.

So the three things I want to accomplish out of this are: get my range cut, get my crop trees growing again, and get part of a skidsteer out of the deal.

I'm not really worried about profit for time invested (I consider every day I spend in the woods a vacation, regardless of how hard I sweat), but that I'm able to keep up with the expenses in assets removed. With some of the bigger red oaks in my rifle range (yet to be cleared), I'm sure I'll get a decent amount of at least grade 3 logs out of it. Much of the rest may or may not reach grade 6.

If my initial numbers are right, I could theoretically sell it all for firewood and make out, but I'd like to do better than that if I can. Paying off the initial loan as soon as possible is another goal I have. Being able to ride out the skidsteer loan payments should be rather painless once the wood starts moving.

My woods trailer is essentially a small forwarder. I suppose I should've clarified that. It'll handle 3,000lbs before the tires are maxed out for highway speeds. I'm not sure what the functional limitation of that thing is. I built it a bit stouter than it needed to be.

 

[woodman6666]

I would buy a track Skidsteer then put a tree terminator shear this will easily shear everything you described get the shear with accumulator arms this way you can shear and grab then place the whole tree where you want it
This is what we do on our clearing jobs

 

[Jim Timber]

I've been planning on OTT tracks. CTS's suck in the snow, and I'll be using it to snowblow 1/2 mile of driveway when we move up there (house isn't built yet).

Shear and maybe a boom grapple for the little stuff? I have a full machine shop, so I can build any implements I need.

 

[Jim Timber]

Here's a couple shots to give an idea what I'm up against:

This is poorer soils where there's a lot of black ash and burr oak:

This is where I've started felling trees along the edge of what will become the clear cut:

The remaining trees to the left are leaning such that they need wedges to go where I want them and I didn't have them with me that day (I know, I suck).

That's actually a living fence on that border. I've had some neighbors that think "no trespassing" doesn't apply to them, so I made it rather difficult to cross. But, as I'm learning, I've left small veneer logs on the ground and should really extract those and sell them.

In the process of felling this half mile 30' wide corridor, I've gotten pretty good at dealing with snags and aiming through the canopy. All the trees have been dropped in N/S orientation, not just picking the best direction to lay them down. I can't make every tree do what I want, but I'm up around 85% lately. That includes knowing when to tug it with the winch for the extreme leaners.

 

[KiwiBro]

Pleasantly surprised with what I can move with my wee tractor+logging winch+log forks. Little impact too. I know time isn't a prob' for you but if you've got any long skids to where you are staging it, tractors could be quite useful. But, yeah, trying to lift anything over about 1t onto a sawmill would be an issue. Also, spiking the tyres isn't much fun.

 

[slowp]

So, are your skid trails pre located? That helps for directionally "dropping" trees so you can really have "low impact" logging. "Dropping" trees at a slight angle will help to get them out of the woods without knocking the bark off the leave trees. I don't know about there, but over here we have a couple of months when the sap starts running in the conifers, and during that time, the bark will slough off in big chunks if folks aren't careful with their falling and skidding practices. Also, wounds on trees will knock down the grade of the log.

You may want to leave some rub trees, which you can cut after skidding or leave for wildlife. I wonder, will you be spinning your wheels a lot because a skid steer is not made for logging? That is not low impact.

 

[Jim Timber]

I'll have over tire tracks on it. I know they'll be higher ground pressure than a CTL would be - the problem with a CTL is that they don't handle stumps well, and they don't handle our snow and ice at all (you just spin). At $3K a pair of tracks, I can't afford to be chewing them up or having a set that are studded for winter (then I couldn't drive on the road).

I have a decent network of trails now, and will be adding more as the spring comes. There's no reason to haul trees more than a couple hundred yards from anywhere on the property on anything other than a trailer. I'll be moving the wood on a trailer or with the log arch for the longer lengths. The skidsteer will facilitate loading said trailer, but won't be towing it. I've pulled in excess of 3500# rolling load (up-hill no less) with my atv before (I'd never try that going down hill), so I don't imagine not being able to haul half a cord in a single trip without difficulty. Scooting around on that thing doesn't leave any marks once the mud's dried out in the spring. It's 50hp and only really limited in that it doesn't weigh enough to use all the power it has. I work the snot out of it now, so it should keep plugging away.

I have 7 mature red pines on all of my property, and have no desire to remove any of them. I've got a bunch of Norway spruce plugs I planted 2 years ago which haven't grown more than 9" (best case) since. There just isn't enough light. I spaced those off of what I expected would be my crop trees then, and now I expect to likely run them over with the thinning. It's not like they're growing now anyway though...

Much of what I want to remove is poorly formed, undesirable species (I want to remove all my aspen and set it back for deer food before more of it breaks in half and dies), or obvious crowding where good trees just don't have room to grow bigger. Then there's the clear cuts, where I'll harvest every tree over 3" and come back with a brush hog and chew the rest up into mulch. If the mills don't want the tiny sticks, I'll cut them to 16" and sell `em as firewood (same as the uglies if the mills don't want them).

Before I start bucking logs, I'll find out what the mill's are buying. I'll also probably try to have the DNR forester come out too.

Thank you guys (and gal) for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. I know I'm jumping into unfamiliar territory, so I really appreciate the willingness to help. If you ever have any trouble with AR15's or 1911's let me know so I can try to return the kindness.

 

[lfnh]

/chop

Before I start bucking logs, I'll find out what the mill's are buying. I'll also probably try to have the DNR forester come out too.

Thank you guys (and gal) for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. I know I'm jumping into unfamiliar territory, so I really appreciate the willingness to help. If you ever have any trouble with AR15's or 1911's let me know so I can try to return the kindness.

+ for stump side bucking can be lower ground impact if forwarded out.
+ deck bucking - might get a grader to come in and mark for your buck cuts for better grade (money). Need to make it worthwhile for grader so volume and or quality is needed or may have to pay grader. But couple of good save bucks and a chance to learn a big part of where money can be made or dropped in bucking is worth considering.
You know how to measure the difference between veneer, tie, firewood and dirt, right ?

KiwiBro and others suggested tractor + Farmi. Good used mfwd and fel with some hp might be worth reconsidering.

Good luck.

mill contracts, in a better economy *maybe* if you have volume or something highly valueable they need and can get out on time. othrwise

 

[Jim Timber]

I won't be bucking anything until I talk to the mills and find out what lengths are in demand. I doubt they'd do a contract right now. I just plan on cutting what needs cutting and then seeing who'll pay the most for it where it lies on the landing.

I'm no stranger to working with wood, so I can assume you're talking about bucking so there's the fewest defects in the remaining log, right?

Measuring for veneer is a concept I'm learning. I hadn't thought they went down as small as 15" (thought it was 18") before seeing it mentioned somewhere last night. I have some very straight wood without any evidence of defects for the first 18-25'. I also have some which have obviously had branches in the past. I'm still learning grading though. Any direction on where to go to learn more about it would be awesome.

Firewood and campfire wood are different in my mind. I have a mobile home "resort" just up the road from me. I'll be selling the little bits to them or their people. Bigger chunks to people who heat with it. I won't be cutting sticks out of the forest thinking I'm harvesting gold if that's what you were getting at?