Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?

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Hah! I thought this was a familiar line of "I want help, but no thank you because I already know what I'm going to do." Plus the rifle range and trespassing neighbors sounded like a rerun.

Good job on digging that up! Apparently he got his ATV in somehow.
 

They ended up dying. I'm down to 6.

I have permission to use the neighbors property to get to the county road, but I'd like to buy different access with the proceeds of the wood, which is why buying a bunch of additional equipment isn't possible. I don't think there will be that much money from the sale. Forgive me for not wanting to go broke like so many people in the industry do. :)
 
I also have the blessing of the TEP to fill the wetlands for a driveway. So if I'm hauling my own loads, I can run whatever I want on the beach road as long as it's not over weight.
 
I would buy a track Skidsteer then put a tree terminator shear this will easily shear everything you described get the shear with accumulator arms this way you can shear and grab then place the whole tree where you want it
This is what we do on our clearing jobs

Aren't you glad you don't have people from the other side of the country telling you it won't work. :p

I'd be interested in hearing more about your workflow, if you'd be so kind?
 
I hope this isn't your day job... Anyway a small single bunk forwarder would be the lowest impact you can achieve in your scenario. Skid steers don't have the ground clearance for logging. They are slow and will easily tear the woods up more than a forwarder. You can also load things with a forwarder. If you want to pay for your fuel, payments, expenses you will need to cut and skid at least 6 cords a day. If you want to make any kind of profit more like 12- 14 cords per day. Also remember that species like maple stain in the summer and will drop a grade within a few weeks. Ash also like to check and split. I hope you get it all figured out, but skid steer is not meant for logging nor would it be profitable when getting paid piece work.
 
Well how much fuel you going to run through? Your saw also needs fuel and oil. It will also need parts, chains, etc... Whatever piece of equipment you get will break. You will need to budget that in as well. Lets say you are making 100 per cord to make it simple. You really should figure out what your cost per cord is. You won't really know until you have done it for a while, but you should get an idea before you tackle this. 2-3 cords per day sounds like $2-$300 per day, but it really isn't. Half to maybe 60% of my gross goes to expenses. That's just logging. Is this property your piece or someone elses? I'm guessing that MN is much like WI in that you need a contract to send pulp to a pulp mill. For that you need insurance and SFI cert. You might be able to find someone to buy the pulp roadside or sell it as firewood if you can get a hold of a trucker. Figure trucking as about $30/cord. Logs will be bought roadside for sure though. Usually with trucking available. Any guy I know who started logging with a skid steer always wished they made the jump to some type of skidder/forwarder instead. Its just not practical. Get a JD 440A and pole skid the stuff if you like. It would be roughly the same impact and you might make some money. I'd find a timberjack forwarder or the like. A lighter machine in the single bunk category.
 
here I thought this was an older thread that had been dredged up...

Anyway a forwarder of some sort will most likely save you tons of headache, even if you get the little trailer with a loader on it and pull it with your atv.

Once you put a load on big ugly wheels it suddenly becomes easy to move.

Or some kind of cable skidder whether it be a small tractor with a winch or a small dedicated skidder. Even a small tractor has enough grunt to move short logs.
Its not real hard to rig up a set of forks to a skidder blade, not huge lift but you can get 4-5' out of em which should be enough to load a small mill.

Finally I would not go with a skid steer, they are small powerful and versatile, however they don't do real good off the well beaten path, because of their small wheel base and relatively small tires with zero articulation the can get stuck on a tooth pick in a pot hole, not to mention beating your brains and back to a pulp by the end of the day.

Cheers and welcome back.
 
It's my land, and I am acting in accordance with my SFI management plan.

Even at 300 a day and 150 in expenses, that's 15/hr and perfectly acceptable to me right now.

I didn't do much up north last couple years because of health issues. I've had some nerve damage in my hands (which is being fixed with surgeries - 3 down, one to go) and I see this whole project as something to do for my own rehabilitation. I'm not getting into logging as you guys are, I'm just harvesting my wood and then moving on to other things. It might cost me a saw along the way (which I can rebuild unless I land a tree on it :laugh: ), it will cost me some chains, fuel, and oil. Whatever machines I run will obviously take some fuel as well. I've been figuring on $100/day in diesel for the time it's running.

Maybe a 40hp tractor would be worth ponying up for. I'll have to think about it.
 
costs for me, as an example...

saw gas oil etc probably around $10. a day

skidder diesel (about 4 gallons a day) so around $16.

crummy diesel about the same... or more, depending on the distance I have to travel.

so lets say costs are around $42. a day, for business sake I double that and hope I don't need parts anytime soon...

So your $300 day just turned into a $200 day or 20 an hour at 10 hours, and 10 hours is a long day of logging...

Now say something breaks... Gods forbid... skidder tires for me 1600 apiece... on sale new injection pump I'm looking at $800. broken mainline $120, hydraulic cylinder takes poop $500 (if I'm lucky)
Any one of these things or more go wrong I kiss my weeks profit goodbye.

I'm not giving you these examples to scare you off, just want you to be prepared for the inevitable. Now you can poke around with whatever equipment you like, but at some point your going to be up against the wall when it comes to parts vs payments vs production. With enough production you can overcome many oopsies on the way, with low production oopsies become oh no's pretty quick.

With less then ideal equipment you might be lucky to get 1-2 cords a day, especially if the skid is long, so now your down to 10-15 dollars and hour, oh wait you just lost 60 to the truck... so make that about 8-10 an hour, then if you get stuck or break down... well I hope you packed a lunch.
 
I've been planning on going with nearly new gear for that reason. Pay now, or pay later. Newer gear has more creature comforts.

Max distance to drag wood is 1/4 mile.
 
I've been thinking of having several landings to work from so most hauls would be 1/8 mile or less.

I'm still crunching numbers. I won't be doing anything until the snow melts.
 
I've been planning on going with nearly new gear for that reason. Pay now, or pay later. Newer gear has more creature comforts.

Max distance to drag wood is 1/4 mile.

"Nearly new" gear is fine but it's still prone to break downs. It's not "if" it's "when". Even nearly new machinery still requires maintenance. And ask yourself why that "nearly new" machine is for sale in the first place. If it's a repo or leaser you can count on it having been run hard and neglected.

The people here have given you a good idea of what to watch for and they made good points. You very obviously know very little about what you're doing. You have a vision of what you want for a result and that's good but without some skills and some basic practical knowledge you're going to wind up spending more money than you'd planned. A lot more.

A couple of other things to consider...and these come from personal experience. Can you do your own wrenching? Do your own oil changes and filters? Can you make up your own hydraulic hoses? Will you have the start-up cash flow to keep a supply of spares on hand? Do you have fuel storage and will it be delivered or will you have to travel for it? In logging it's not maintenance that costs, it's the downtime that kills you. If you have to run to town for a filter or a hose or fuel you can kiss the profit for that day, and maybe the couple of days, goodbye.


You talked about creature comforts and needing an AC cab. That's fine but fancies don't make you any money. Are you prepared to log, and log hard, all day and then work on your machinery at night? Are you willing to log all day, work all night, grab an hours sleep in the pickup and then log the next day again? There are times when that's necessary. On a hobby-logging set up like yours I doubt if you'll have the extra cash to pay a field mechanic.

Just by a rough count you've been given the combined experience of over 200 years in the woods by the people who have answered your posts...in this thread and the others you've started. You need to listen. You need to listen soon, too.. You need to realize that just because you want to do something a certain way, or with a certain kind of equipment, bearing in mind your total lack of experience, you'd be well advised to take advantage of the help that's offered. Don't ask for our opinion on something you know nothing about and then argue with us. That's rude and insulting. It only underscores your lack of experience and makes us reluctant to even bother with you.

There's good help and advice here, free for the taking. Or, just stumble blindly on. Your choice entirely.
 
I've been spinning wrenches in some capacity for the past 30 years. I'm not afraid of getting dirty, and I've built and rebuilt numerous engines. Spent years in the truck maintenance industry, was a helicopter tech in the army, and am currently a machinist with my own shop. I've also been welding for 15 years.

You're right I'm not a logger and have never claimed otherwise.
 
sounds like yur all set, just make sure to slam your hand in the truck door before you start the saw, it gives you the right attitude and verbage
 
A skid steer in that size of wood is going to struggle. First a skid steer has a very short wheel base and not give you adequate traction. Will it do it? yes... but it will not be efficient. It appears that tracked models of skid steers have a really light footprint. 6 psi for a bobcat T590 with complete rubber tracks, not the chain ones. Obviously you cannot afford a piece of specialty logging equipment so you want to get a machine that can do multiple things. As someone else suggested, go with a tractor. It will pull logs better than a skid steer. Skid steers are designed to lift not pull. So if you hook it on the back end where the engine is and try pulling going forward you are just going to pop wheelies therefore you will be forced to pull in reverse. The skid steers I've sat in, that will get old really fast. A Farmi or similar winch with a good 50 HP tractor will get all you need done. They are designed to pull loads forward. Plus you will be able to buy other attachments such as a brush hog much cheaper than you could buy a similar attachment for a skid steer. You can get proper log forks for a tractor and if you need weight you can buy or build a counterweight. If you plan on having food plots on your property this will become very useful. Use those existing trails you already have. Smaller one or two pass trails are common off the main skid trail. Okay now I remember you mentioning being worried about lots of large trails. Are you planning on doing an uneven-aged (at least 3 cohorts), two-aged (two cohorts), or clearcut everything when it's mature. If you are doing uneven-aged you will have permanent skid trails as you will be entering the stand quite frequently. Similar but less with a two-aged stand. Just wondering but, wouldn't a snow plow be cheaper than a blower? I would think the plow would be faster but I don't know much about moving snow; just that it likes to shut down my logging jobs and I like playing in it.
 
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