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But he doesn't have any money in the saw yet...
MS 880 Given to Me
- Thread starter PP4218
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You put junk in, you have every right to expect to get junk out. The man can do whatever he wants, but he’s had advice on both sides of the OEM/aftermarket fence and he’s still confused.
I’ll tell you what I will do. I’ll sell him my OEM cylinder set that will fit his saw for $300. That’s probably less than I paid. And if he’ll send it to me I’ll fix it. All he will have to do is cover parts and shipping. How about that?
I’ll tell you what I will do. I’ll sell him my OEM cylinder set that will fit his saw for $300. That’s probably less than I paid. And if he’ll send it to me I’ll fix it. All he will have to do is cover parts and shipping. How about that?
BrettS
ArboristSite Operative
So?, telling someone "Just put new OEM stuff in it and drive on. Or, sell it to someone who will. It’s been said before, “You can lead a horse to water…”" is just arrogance, the op may not want to put "new OEM stuff in it" or have the money to (especially at the over inflated price OEM product is) so if the people telling the op they should "Just put new OEM stuff in it" want to buy that OEM stuff for the op that'll be great, then there will be no more whinging about 'he should just stuff OEM in it...
BrettS
ArboristSite Operative
Nah, how about GIVE him the OEM stuff, yes GIVE since you lot bang on about it so much when there is cheaper and equally as good parts out there (Meteor/ Caber) then you won't need to whinge about him fitting "China crap"..........
Nothin free in this world. Someone gave him a broken but otherwise nice saw. Now he’s got to fix it. So it’s not free after all. I don’t care if he puts junk in, it won’t affect me all. But if he wants it fixed right spend the $ and buy parts you can have confidence in. My offer still stands.
If you are not a saw guru, like me, take av8or3 up on this offer. I like to run saws but just lack confidence when working on them even though I did repair my FS120 trimmer. I had a scored MS290 and the wood doctor was able to repair it for not much money. Get that MS880 sent.
I’m not a guru at anything. I’d like to see the fellow get his saw fixed though. The easiest part of this job is knowing what parts to get and he can’t seem to get past that. I’m just trying to get things moving for him. Anyone (just about) can fix a chainsaw.
BrettS
ArboristSite Operative
So nothing is free in this world but somebody gave him something with no money etc exchanging hands, that's free in my book....
@av8or3
Thats a pretty generous offer and very kind of you!
I can tell you that the older style cylinder with the exhaust flange runs better than the new MS880, and I've run both. Finding that p/c can be a challenge in and of itself.
If someone offered to sell me a fresh 088 for 300.00 plus shipping I don't know a person who wouldn't be all over it!
Thats a pretty generous offer and very kind of you!
I can tell you that the older style cylinder with the exhaust flange runs better than the new MS880, and I've run both. Finding that p/c can be a challenge in and of itself.
If someone offered to sell me a fresh 088 for 300.00 plus shipping I don't know a person who wouldn't be all over it!
Yes it's free but useless unless you need a door stop
Fixed right it's worth a lot of coin
Fixed with cheap parts makes it a crap shoot whether you have a usable saw or a usable doorstop.
Do any job once, and right the first time.
BrettS
ArboristSite Operative
Still free, he was given it, no money changed hands...
I hesitate to jump in here due to the liklihood of getting flamed by the OEM purists, but the harsh reality of life is that you may have no choice but AM. I ran into this with some older saws like my 084. Stihl just doesn't offer the cylinder for every saw they ever made anymore.
Yes, you might be able to clean up the old one or you might be able to find a serviceable used one on the infamous auction site. But not every cylinder is salvageable and not every vendor is honest.
In my limited experience but considerable research, I prefer Meteor as my go-to AM option -- if available. They seem to offer a wider range than Stihl, and very similar quality. Made in the same foundry as their pistons, presumably in Italy. But they don't offer as wide a range in cylinders as some other manufacturers.
My next choice would be Cross Performance as the best of the Chinese makes. Cross and Hyway were the only nikasil plated options for my 084 and the Cross seemed to be of much better finish. That was several years ago and the Cross is still going strong. Both Cross and Hyway kits came with Caber rings.
All that said, I don't think you are going to find one to fit your muffler. A quick google search suggest the only AM cylinders out there are for the bolt-on muffler. If you can't clean up your old one or get one from Stihl, you're going to have to change the muffler too.
Yes, you might be able to clean up the old one or you might be able to find a serviceable used one on the infamous auction site. But not every cylinder is salvageable and not every vendor is honest.
In my limited experience but considerable research, I prefer Meteor as my go-to AM option -- if available. They seem to offer a wider range than Stihl, and very similar quality. Made in the same foundry as their pistons, presumably in Italy. But they don't offer as wide a range in cylinders as some other manufacturers.
My next choice would be Cross Performance as the best of the Chinese makes. Cross and Hyway were the only nikasil plated options for my 084 and the Cross seemed to be of much better finish. That was several years ago and the Cross is still going strong. Both Cross and Hyway kits came with Caber rings.
All that said, I don't think you are going to find one to fit your muffler. A quick google search suggest the only AM cylinders out there are for the bolt-on muffler. If you can't clean up your old one or get one from Stihl, you're going to have to change the muffler too.
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
Hi guys, thanks for all the comments. I've been researching ways to prevent the failure mode that occurred on this saw. Reviewing several engineering papers on different coatings and cylinder types, I find that chromium plated cylinders have better thermal conductivity than Nikasil plated cylinders. Nikasil wears longer and is a harder surface, but rejects heat and put more out the exhaust than a comparable chromium plated cylinders. As a result of this heat rejection, more heat is sent out the exhaust and also into the piston. Since I don't have the exact composition of the cylinder material I have posted several.
That's why I currently looking into piston coatings. As some seem to like OEM, I wonder if they use only OEM on their automobiles as well - you know, because they are going to sell it and they want the next owner to have the best!
That's why I currently looking into piston coatings. As some seem to like OEM, I wonder if they use only OEM on their automobiles as well - you know, because they are going to sell it and they want the next owner to have the best!
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
Anyway, I am going to use an aftermarket piston with a coating to protect the piston surface and the skirts, as this saw was manufactured in 2005 and I'm going to use it, not sell it. I am going to attempt re-conditioning the existing cylinder, but if that fails I will go aftermarket as I already have the components on-hand (I prefer Cross myself).
Regarding purists and OEM - If that's what you want to do, great. I am no purist and I am most interested in the best engineering solution for the problem that plagued this particular saw.
Anything I can do within my expertise I will do. I have built many engines over the years - motorcycle, automobile, lawn equipment, and chainsaws. I'm not concerned with the work this requires. In reality, it's not complicated nor is it rocket science or magic.
I think there are some here who may have certain brand affinities and are not able to look past that to find newer engineering solutions to problems. That's fine for them, but that is not for me.
This is great research on this particular topic:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1468087420978016
For those that speak to knowing about such things but have done no true research, purchase a research paper and you will find true data, not "tales" passed down and "I have always done it this way" type of knowledge.
Just saying....
Regarding purists and OEM - If that's what you want to do, great. I am no purist and I am most interested in the best engineering solution for the problem that plagued this particular saw.
Anything I can do within my expertise I will do. I have built many engines over the years - motorcycle, automobile, lawn equipment, and chainsaws. I'm not concerned with the work this requires. In reality, it's not complicated nor is it rocket science or magic.
I think there are some here who may have certain brand affinities and are not able to look past that to find newer engineering solutions to problems. That's fine for them, but that is not for me.
This is great research on this particular topic:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1468087420978016
For those that speak to knowing about such things but have done no true research, purchase a research paper and you will find true data, not "tales" passed down and "I have always done it this way" type of knowledge.
Just saying....
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
Yes sir, you are correct and I was wrong. I am replacing all the rubber parts and seals anyway since they are over 17 years old, but I botched that test. Thank you for letting me know.
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
Nope, I'm not confused. I already bought aftermarket.
I appreciate your offer. What muffler does your cylinder set take, bolt on or clip on?
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
Thank you?
Did you not read my posts and understand my questions?
I just asked "Anyway, what do you guys recommend for a cylinder base gasket and exhaust gasket?"
"What would cause the exhaust port skirt to be so scarred up"
I was looking for specific answers, not rambling on what cylinder/piston to buy due to brand affinity, OEM quality, etc.
Have you owned an MS880? Have you had the same problem? If so, what did you find out?
I already know generic answers "it got hot", "it is scarred". No kidding. What I wanted to know was what was done to fix the issue to prevent it from happening again. For the OEM people here, this was an OEM piston and and OEM cylinder that failed. That's why I'm looking for a better solution.
I intend to use AM parts (piston) treated to reject heat and protect the skirt based on heat emissivity from the cylinder and heat rejection on the piston (depending on whether or not the cylinder is reusable after rehab).
Thank you for the best practice information. I dd intend to follow this as you are absolutely correct IMO.
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What was done to fix someone elses saw with a burned up piston- matters not- unless your "free" saw suffered the exact same fault not caused by OEM failure, but operator error/neglect, or failure to spot a terminal condition and continue to run the saw.
You do not find the answer by internet research, but rather by a process of elimination, having a leakproof (and tested as such) in spec engine- good condition and well set up carb and intake system, correct fuel mix and good tuning.
There is no "better solution" than OEM, they came up with the original design and had it made- the rest are just aftermarket copies of that design and research and vary both in price and build quality.
Once again, this saw did not "fail" because the OEM parts were inferior to aftermarket- it failed because of the human factor involved- not the mechanical.
Scrub your cylinder, fit your piston, go cut some wood- I am sure Karen will be along soon to tell me I am a meanie, when in reality I am just being honest.
PP4218
ArboristSite Operative
LOL, I appreciate your comment. OEM is designed to fit a lot of parameters and not necessarily be the best at any of them. Only good enough. Having said that, I think that an OEM piston properly coated and protected would probably be fine in this application.
I designed to meet my customer's demands - didn't matter what I thought was best, they were paying me to design to their spec. I worked with many engineers and we told our stories (I'll date myself here) but one was the Ford Pinto. And not the gas tank - it was a rattle in the dash. Ford knew of the problem, but saved $1.02 on every Pinto built. If the purchaser complained, Ford paid to have the bracket installed to stop the rattle. Otherwise, they didn't care. Ford saved hundreds of thousands of dollars by doing this.
I appreciate OEM, believe me, I do. However, I know OEM is designed to constraints (money, time, material) and there are limitations of the OEM design. My AM solution will be better - how much, probably not a lot. However, materials science has advanced a lot since 2005. That is why I'm going in my direction. I don't know better than the engineers who designed the original equipment, I just don't know what they designed to.
I know what I want to design to, and I will go with parts that meet my criteria. For those "tripping over pennies", I have an open budget for this. Meaning I don't care what I spend to fix this saw the way I want to. If it costs as much as the saw cost new, so what?
I spend my money and my time the way I want to. The only constraint I have is how much time I have left to live.
