Need Help justifying an ethical dilemma

[chad556]

So as some of you may know I work on a golf course, I grow grass spring summer and fall and work on trees in the winter. I am a certified arborist but my degree is in turf management.

Today my boss gave me the number of one of our clubs board members who mentioned he wanted some trees removed. I thought great, if i do a good job and make him happy he will have the whole filthy rich membership calling me asking for tree work. Great sidejob opportunity.

Go to the guys house today and we go look at his trees. He leads me into his Mansion, yes mansion 20' ceilings, grand piano, couple Mercedes in the driveway. He points out his rear bay window at his backyard to "two dark green ones"(norway maples) "see how they block the view? they need to be topped"
"Well topping wouldnt be very beneficial in the long run to the trees health and vigor, maybe a crown reduction or vista pruning would be more..."

"Naw, just top em', just take your chainsaw and chop off the top 20' or so" (the tree cant be taller than 40')

"If you are going to go that far you should consider removing them completly maybe, and possibly replacing them with something that doesn't grow that tall?"

"Oh no, people around here would get upset to see trees getting cut down, I don't care but I just don't want to deal with it, just top them, that will be fine."

Uggh, how am I supposed to argue with this guy he is literally my boss's boss. He was the one of the ones who hired my boss. Anyways, time to go outside and look at the things first hand.

So I hop into this guys Mercedes, apparently the trees are only accessible through his neighbors property. On the very short drive there he tells me that the wife is reasonable but the husband is a prick. Great. When I do the job I will have to park and stage my gear in this guys driveway, who I never met or talked to btw. He rings the doorbell, no answer so we go around back and the first thing he asks me to do is top the neighbors tree(another norway maple, that has obviously been topped a couple times before) while I'm back there. I asked if the neighbors were cool with that and he quickly talked himself out of the idea He pointed out black cherry and said to just drop it, chop it up and leave it (this is a wooded scrubby side hill area I'm working in not a manicured lawn but still...) Shortly after he changes his mind and tells me to just take 2/3 of the cherry off the top :msp_ohmy: Oh and he gave me permission to hack down any saplings that might be in my way as well.

At this point I was too dumbfounded to even ask about compensation, the guys loaded anyway so it will be decent for the couple hours of work it would be. I mean, there is no clean up involved at all how easy is that?

So a recap, trespass on unsuspecting neighbors property, check. top three trees(give or take), check. Leave a huge mess in my wake, check.

Its not even about the money why I feel I have to do this. If I refuse it puts me and my boss in an awkward spot (hes basically loaning me out to this guy as a favor) and kills or at least greatly lessens my chance at getting any future jobs from anyone at the golf club. On the other hand doing it will permanently smear professional reputation (at least in my eyes) and who knows, this guy might tell all the other members that im the best tree topper hes ever seen and then I will be stuck topping all the trees in the wealthiest area of Staten Island.

I have never topped a tree before and I really didn't want to start so early in my career. Sadly walking away doesnt seem like a smart option either. Don't really know what I'm looking for here, advice, anyone that has similar stories and how they dealt with it, maybe I just needed to vent lol. You guys have probably had customers this crazy but at least you could just flat out say "no way". The job goes down this saturday unless i can make time to do it eariler. I will post pics of what I end up doing and give you guys an update if I can. Until then I guess I just keep trying to think of good excuses and hope that another hacker shows up and lets me off the hook.

 

[fishercat]

Simple.............

Don't get involved. Trust me.

If you do do it,you better talk to his neighbors. If things go wrong he's going to claim he doesn't know you. Better get a signed proposal!

 

[bobt]

Chad, I am no arborist, but I have dealt with this kind before. They know what they want, and do not take advice from anyone. If you don't do it, he will find someone who will. I suspect that he wants you to do this job for a discount as well. Wealthy club members have a way of using their influence so to speak.

Give him a fair price, do the job, and let your conscience be free. He will have gotten what he wanted.

Bob

 

[BCbound]

Crappy situation. I've been in it before. I do my best to talk the client out of topping. I've even said no to more jobs I'd like to admit, that later the competition rolled on by and did.

Now it's about putting food on the table for me and my staff. I do my best to give alternatives. If there still into topping, my price is high and I tell them they could get it cheaper elsewhere if they choose to.

I would be talking to the neighbor before any work is done. You could open yourself up to some legal problems.

 

[mckeetree]

I would run from that one.

 

[treeman82]

Do you have insurance and an occupational license to be doing this work for private homeowners? You could always use those excuses, though late in the game for that now.

 

[zopi]

Easy answer for me...and I use this one alot..."I do not top trees for aesthetic reasons." It is not professional or ethical, and I will not degrade my standards for anyone, end of story.

I am not a certified arborist..yet..looks like business is going to take me that way, so I'll roll with it. What I find is that most people, when I draw a line in the sand, one over which I refuse to step, they respect that and either listen to my advice, or they get pissy..I have had a couple stay pissy aftter I explained in greater detail why we do not top trees...usually can point out an example in the neighborhood, and they understand or they want to treat me like the hired help..no thanks..most of the time, I get the job and they do it my way..If I were really hungry...well..never been that hungry.

I would explain things to your boss in terms of what he is asking is agiainst my professional ethics, and borderline illegal...being the riff raff filling in a rich @#$% cat fight...nahh..too much liability..this business is rough enough as it is.

If you do it right, you always have your own self esteem, and most people respect that, the ones who do not, are not worth your time and energy just for a few bucks.

 

[treemandan]

Definatley sounds like a situation that you are gonna have to do yer best to hack yourself out of. I DO NOT envy you and thanks for reminding my why I don't go near golf courses anymore.

 

[ducaticorse]

binding contract on every aspect including both property owners detailing every last action to be completed on your behalf. It can be done, and done profitable. You need to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. Dont walk on a job like that just because it's logistically difficult. If you execute professionally, you'll make a ton of money off of referrals.

Too many people on here ##### about no work, other bids going and getting beat by hacks. Do the right thing, put the time in, do your due diligence and get the job. Build your business. Not every customer is a walk in the park.

 

[David (saltas)]

run away

 

[indiansprings]

Chad, your definetly in a tough spot. You know down deep if you don't do it, the board member could effect your employment at the golf course.

I would take the action that was previously mentioned and draw up a very detailed and meticulous contract.I would outline every course of action, including getting the neighbors to acknowledge what is being done and why trespassing on their property is needed. I would also ask that the property lines involved be clearly identified and acknowledged by both parties. I would also but a clause in the contract that the guy acknowledge that you are not insured or bonded to do this type of work and that he holds you harmless for any actions that result from your work. I would also clearly outline what you will charge. It would be damn expensive if I quoted it. There is a reason he is not calling the guy back that has hacked on the trees previously. If you incorporate enough legal mumbo jumbo in the contract I think he will run from having you do the job. Just explain that you are a businessman and you have to have a binding contract to do the job, that you know he understands business and that he'd respect the fact that you have to protect yourself like anyone else from potential liability.

If he refuses to sign a contract, I'd tell him there is just no way you can perform the work as you do not have a license or the permits/ insurance to perform the job.

People like this are slime in my book.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Thats tough.

"What your asking could get me in a world of trouble I cant afford, I have a family to support and work hard and honestly for you every day, doing this could ruin my reputation for being a good honest arborist. Here is the name of a guy who will do it for you cheap"

 

[flushcut]

binding contract on every aspect including both property owners detailing every last action to be completed on your behalf. It can be done, and done profitable. You need to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. Dont walk on a job like that just because it's logistically difficult. If you execute professionally, you'll make a ton of money off of referrals.

Too many people on here ##### about no work, other bids going and getting beat by hacks. Do the right thing, put the time in, do your due diligence and get the job. Build your business. Not every customer is a walk in the park.

People with a lot of dough want what they want when they want it. Stand your ground. You were asked to do a job and get it all in writing from both parties. You should check with a neighborhood association if such practices are allowed, check with the DNR, and check with the municipality. If some party gives you a red flag that is your out Scott free. I have worked with some billionaires on Lake Geneva and when it comes down to tree work there is a very strong conservation group that must sing off on all of it before anything gets started even before you load your truck.
Leave nothing to question. As far as the topping sell them on a removal or maybe a drop crotch canopy redux and land a annual gig. What ever you do GET IT IN WRITING from both parties.
Dude is rich, and uneducated in the practices of our profession so educate the man. When he sees a bunch of legal and binding contracts to sign off on then he may be singing a different tune.
Good luck!

 

[RacerX]

Since you're a certified arborist I would just tell him that anything that is outside of the standard working practices of a certified arborist (i.e.- topping) could jeopardize your certification therefore you will not do it. A certified arborist should be following standards set forth by the industry. If the customer chooses something outside of those standards you have the right to walk away and not jeopardize your certification and reputation.

 

[spidermonkey17]

chad i know where you are coming from,
Before getting in to this industry i was in the golf course industry as a assistant superintendent, at a high end golf course,(got out when i could best decision ever made) so i know what membership expectations are like at a high end facility. I would would speak to your director hopefully he is a CGCS or your GM and speak to them on what this member told you to do and how you do not feel comfortable doing this. I know my relationships with both my direct boss and my GM where very good and that if i had a problem with a member or something above my pay grade to see them and they would handle this. IF you are worried about your reputation in the golf industry and staying with it i would handle it this way, being the most professional way and because your director and also GM have a lot more they can say and get away with when speaking to a member than you do(not sure where on the totem pole you are) good luck to you . hopefully it works out for you.

 

[treeseer]

talk to the neighbor first to get the rest of the story. aLSO CHECK TO SEE IF THERE IS A COVENANT for the neighborhood.

i reduce trees for view; the ? is how much and how often

Aren't norway maples considered invasive up there? good excuse to cut back now and remove and replace in the fall. that would allay concerns

Find out more and send pics. walking away solves nothing.

 

[mckeetree]

walking away solves nothing.

I've seen the time walking away would have solved everything.

 

[spidermonkey17]

I've seen the time walking away would have solved everything.

if the thought crosses your mind then you know its time to walk away.

 

[stihl.logger]

in my nitch of the business being caught on property other than the owner you contracted with spells disaster, word gets out, you get a bad name, charges could be filed, you could end up losing more money and have more headaches than the job is worth.

if you do it, get ALL the specifics in writing and signed by all HO's involved... you never know, this could be the job that makes or breaks you... every job has it's challeges, it's up to you what you make of it, be professional, cross your T's and dot your I's. weather you do the job or not you will walk away with a little more experiance under your belt

 

[TreeAce]

Maybe I misunderstood but it sounded to me like this guy is "your bosses boss" right? Is he even paying you or are you doing this on golf course time? Seems like it would matter. Sounds like alot of back scratching BS to me. Sucky situation. I like the idea of pointing out that its harmful to the trees and could jeopardize your CERT. Only problem with that is that I am sure this guy could give a rats ars about ur cert. He just wants what he wants...preferably for free.

Exactly how many people will ever see these trees? "Just" one neighbor or every SOB who drives down the road? Well, if he is worried about people complaining about cutting down the trees then I would think they would complain about fkd up topped trees. Maybe you could get him thinking about that?? maybe