new climbing styles vs. old

[nitwit dolt]

New Techniques

It's quite simple. Tree work is like skinning cats, there is more than one way to do it. If your not constantly looking for a smarter way to do it, your working to hard.

When I first purchased my Pantin, I wore it on every tree. Light weight and easy to use. Never knew when it might come in handy. I rarely use it now, but when I do it sure comes in handy.

It's all about the tools in your tool box. Does your mechinic do all your repairs with a five pound sledge and a role of duct tape? You can tell how handy a guy is by how many pairs of vice grips he has.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Great to see allot of climbers on advanced systems and gear. Go to climbing competitions to see how its all put into practice if your a bit of a skeptic. You wouldn't see this flash gear around at all if it wasn't faster and more efficient!

If i gave Lance Armstrong a bike race on the road and he had a old mountain bike and i had his flash race bike he would still smoke me hands down. Its not about the bike but it helps. Its the same with climbing the flash gear helps allot but the climber has still got to be able to do his job

 

[Sirpouralot]

I think that new technology in the equipment we use is crucial for the advancements that have occoured over the years but when I say "why change now" I am referring more to climbing styles and techniques. I am all about better and safer equipment that I currently use but I dont feel a need to use new climbing gadgets that will take time to learn when I can get into trees efficiently as it is. I may end up getting into a tree faster with the new toys but its not worth all of the time I would have to take it slow and low to learn it because my productivity would suffer during that amount of time and I hate being unproductive....its not good for business.

I remember when I was a boy I had a recurve bow and tried for years to hit a deer. I practiced daily with that old recurve all summer in anticipation of the up coming hunt each season only to come home each year empty handed.

Finally one day someone suggested that I buy a compound bow, next some sights, and soon after that a mechanical release. Next thing you know I am hitting the bullseye every time. No more need to practice all summer, just pull out the bow a few days before the hunting season and take a couple of shots is all that was needed to be ready. I always got my deer too, because I didn't have to spend so much time practicing my shot and had more time to do scouting.

Over the years I managed to bag several nice bucks and a couple of record book bucks. Still my friends tell me, that I will never be as good as Fred Bear, who only used a straight bow.

So although the new equipment makes some of us better, it really only enables us to do the things that many before us have already done better, and with out the need to be weighed down with gadgetry.

 

[RedlineIt]

I live in a very large metropolitian center (over 2 million people) and you would think there would be more awareness and knowledge of even the most basic of equipment, techniques and styles......(SRT, DRT etc)...but thats not the case....

WHY IS THIS? why do I feel like an outcast because i take the time to research new gear, try out new gear, learn new techniques etc etc? I told a potential employer about my skills, and they asked "whats that?" - no clue...none....

SRT-Tech,

Keep looking for an employer that knows what you're on about, they've got out be out there. I mean you found the arborist's supply shop that knows what you're talking about, and he's got to be selling the good stuff to someone, right? I'll assume you mean the shop down on River Road in Van, I've bought stuff there myself, or at least I used to, the outfit I'm with now gets a nice chunky employee discount at Sherrill's .

The owner of that shop used to run his own tree service untill he got bought up by a big company with green trucks and big bucks, he still knows who is doing what in the tree biz in Van, no ax to grind, might be a good guy to go have a pint with!

Bit of a story of my own SRT, when I moved out to BC I was moving from doing tree work as a small part of my job to tree work full time and they grow 'em BIG on the west coast, so I was ready for a steep learning curve. I had checked out the company I was going to be working for back in central Canada ( It's a big company with green trucks...) and they looked pretty tight, with up-to-date techniques, so I hired on to one of their west coast offices and made the move.

I arrived to find their climbers here still in the stone age, if not quite inbred tards. With my simple split-tail to a Blake's system I was looked at askance as a bit too avant garde. Within a few weeks of my hiring they brought on a kid fresh out of school who tried to take a couple of minutes with everyone gathered around one morning to highlight the advantages of a friction saver. His presentation was literally laughed out of the room not only by the climbers but by the local managers, one of whom loudly declared, "Friction savers are for pussies, let's all be like our new little ?????!"

Well the kid didn't last more than two weeks, and good for him, he got out of there quick. I still needed to learn some big tree removals on spurs so I hung around until I got some of that. Then I looked around.

It didn't take me long to figure out who their competition was. I took a couple of precious days off (new man, no vacation pay) to check them out. One turned out to be just as much an old school "bomb-it-down-fix-it-later" bunch of losers, didn't even bother exploring them, but the other company had climbers swinging through the canopy of a huge old Oak, false crotch here, redirect there, lowering systems to rig out trims over the house, and so I applied.

Once I'd hired on with them, my learning curve really started, the crews had all sorts of gear to aid their work. Kong Ascenders for that guy, Tree Frog gear over there, Petzl ascenders, you name it. Big shot gets traded around among whoever needs it, and rigging for low impact is treated as the ne plus ultra of everything we do.

I showed up with my split-tail on a Blake's and the guys gently told me to get out of the graveyard of old school and amp my climbing up.

I knew I was home.

This company is also hiring, and they had a session for new climbers a few weeks ago to bring some new blood up to speed. This fall we'll pause production for a day to get everyone who shows the desire up to speed on SRT entry.

I'm looking forward to that, and it sound like we could use you.

Good tree companies are out there, but they are rare.

PM me.


Treespyder,

Excellent post that captures the essence of this old original thread. Well done.



RedlineIt

 

[clearance]

Redline, why not just say Davey Tree? I have never ever heard one good thing about Davey in B.C. and not to do with anything you were talking about, other, worse things. Davey=green. Asplundh (who I hear good and bad about)=orange, is it that hard? At least you are honest enough to say you had something to learn about big removals, sounds like you are happy where you are, good for you.

 

[SRT-Tech]

opcorn:

 

[lync]

I've been climbing for about 11 years and also started with a tautline and a snap. My main reason for exploring advanced techniques is that this is my second carreer and i'm over 40, I needed to save every bit of energy to make it through the day. i would have to say that using srt is probably the most drastic energy saving change I have made in my style. I owe it all to an old time climber. He climbs with a snap and a tautline, and ascenders. This same guy also used to climb with an old style lanyard where the line is doubled over and a sliding prussic make the adjustment. I convinced him to try my lanyard (VT micropully one hand adjustment). One climb, and he kept mine, and has never given it back.
I think it all comes back to your willingness to learn. Some are set in there ways and are not willing to try optional methods. Some will try something new. You don't know what your missing unless you try it.
corey

 

[RedlineIt]

Redline, why not just say Davey Tree? I have never ever heard one good thing about Davey in B.C.

Hmmm, I thought reference to a non-sponsoring company name got bot-filtered on this DB. Apparently not. Must be some other DB.

OK

Davey Tree's west coast operations fellate the donkey long, hard, and to the complete satisfaction of the donkey.

Izat betta?


RedlineIt

 

[clearance]

Pretty good, I've heard nastier from former employees.

 

[Climb020]

Really Davey, hurd some good things and was going to concider the change guess I'll look else where. But back to the topic. Yes the person needs to be will ing to change and explore. If you have it in you mind that what you do is best then you mentally won't allow other devices to excel for you.

 

[Bearclaw]

I am with SRT-Tech as far as being a gear junkie. I use most of the newer stuff on the market, and it makes life a lot easier, quicker, and it saves me money. (In the long run).

 

[Tree Machine]

Ditto that. It causes me great pain to see the pro's making it harder than it has to be. Double that pain in watching the noobs struggle through the more difficult, traditional methods.


If you only knew how easy it can really be, you would bail on the old-school methods and enjoy new levels of swiftness and efficiency. The fewer limitations your system puts on you, the more time you can dedicate to actual tree care, not just climbing and positioning.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I never climbed much at all, but I have a friend in Indiana, who has a decent size tree service in Bloomington. He had a tree service in Geogia, and in Oregon, too, for quite some time. He's good, and he has a lot of experience.

Anyhow, he told be that he hired an arborist, not long ago. Maybe a guy out of England.

My friend said that this new guy is like the

"next generation of arborists"

He said that where it might take him 100 cuts to get a big maple tree down, that this new guy, with new techniques and gadgets, could handle the same tree in half the time, with maybe 40 - 50 cuts, and do it safely.


"Chop...Chop !!!"

 

[Climb020]

Yeah we are out there just waiting to be discovered.

Just this weekend I took down a 40" DBH maple. Had one limb over the house with sky lights. With normal practices I would have had to cut the limb 6 or 7 times. But with a spider leg balance I was able to remove the whole limb all at once. And doing it this way was much easier and safer (for property damage) then tradional methods.

When I was at a Vermeer show I was suprised by how many guys still did things the old way. Even after being showed how much easier and faster new devices are they still said they would never buy it. Things even like a port-a-wrap pay for themselves in a year. Just think about it. They even demoed how easy and fast it was to use on compared to taking a wrap around a tree. A lets not forget about the damage done to the rope from the tree bark.

 

[Sirpouralot]

None of you will ever be as good as Fred Bear no matter how many new toys you haul up into the tree with you. All Fred needs is just his old warn out leather saddle and a 120 feet of hemp!

No seriously there are some old time guys that would make most of us look like an amateur. I worked with this guy by the name of Ray Dalby back in the 70's who to his credit was the most well studied guy out there. He was always learning and wanting to learn. I last worked with him in the mid 80's when he was nearing 60 yrs of age, and I was still amazed watching him take down this huge story book elm over the primary. He was old school I guess only because he was old and that was all there was. When Dutch Elm disease hit the area of Michigan in the 50's and 60's he did mostly Elm removal for municipality and ran his own business on the side. This is the only guy I ever seen carry a cant hook (peavy) up into the tree with him. He used it to lift the butt end up and over the primary when a rather large section was coming off. He started out in California logging and taking down trees the like that none of us have ever seen. I watched him put a chain and binder on the trunk of a large elm and start back cutting and the tree gently laid over without barber-chairing. Some of you guys come across to cocky with your new found knowledge. There are old school guys out there that could put a big removal on the ground safely before you ever locate all your gear off the truck.

Don't get me wrong knowledge is great, and should be used to advantage, but it still is no replacement to skill.

Final thoughts. It is good to embrace the new, but don't let go of the old. It would do many of you guys some good to go watch an old logging competition. I think you will be shocked by the level of skill. <Sirpouralot

 

[Climb020]

Like I said before I give a lot of credit to the old style guys but unfortunatly many of the old school guys don't follow proper safety standards either, or at least the ones I have worked with. Times have changes since the 60's as well as standards for work and safety. I think that is more what it is for the next generation of climbers. It isn't just about being good at what you do but making your job as safe as possible while you are doing it. At least this has been my expierence.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I think that the "Next Generation" arborists will demonstrate to the tree care industry, how to take some physical burden out of the work. And that's important.

That in itself, may encourage some good minds to select this trade, who may have taken another path for a profession.

 

[Sirpouralot]

Old school by definition means that which is tried and true.
New school by definition means exercise extreme caution until proved true through time. A wait and see attitude is usually best.

Older people are usually much more cautious than young people. Just ask your insurance company. An old guy with top hat driving his 66 Ford is considered much safer than a young educated guy fresh out of driving school in his shiny new mustang with his ABS brakes and current seatbelt laws and such.

The reason is experience. An accident happens when something unexpected happens. The more experience you gain and more time you log in the saddle, the less surprises you will see.There are a lot of old loggers and tree guys that die of old age, and with all there fingers, testifying to there safe work habits. There are always going to be some who are unsafe and some who work safe regardless of what the current laws are.

There are 4 levels of learning.
1 unconscious ignorance
2 conscious ignorance
3 conscious awareness
4 unconscious awareness.

To illustrate: take a guy who never has been on a bicycle. He looks at someone riding and thinks to himself that looks easy. He has no concept yet of balance and how forward momentum is needed. This is unconscious ignorance. Conscious ignorance is when he then gets on the bike and is unable to keep his balance, but now knows it is harder than it first appeared.

Conscious awareness is when he finally is able to keep his balance and make forward progress, but has to keep his mind on his work as his turns and stops are unsteady.

The final level of learning is unconscious awareness. He has such ability that he has his mind focused completely on something else while he is pedaling to his destination.

It is level 4 and level 2 that produce the most accidents. That is guys just starting out, and old guys who don't keep there mind on what they are doing.

To sum up, it really doesn't matter what kind of bike he is riding, whether it is old or new. you have to be aware of people around you who may be acting in an unsafe manner and it has more to do with the individual than what climbing style or gear he prefers. That is what I have seen to be true with over 30 years in the field.

 

[Tree Machine]

Very nicely done Sir Pour.

Old school by definition means that which is tried and true.
New school by definition means exercise extreme caution until proved true through time. A wait and see attitude is usually best.

Points well taken. Defining Old School vs New School need more definition than exercise extreme caution. That goes for both schools. As far as climbing arborists certain lines are drawn at how they are different, not how one is better than another, but distinct lines of demarcation. There are gray areas and overlaps here and there, but the major distinctions between new and old school climbing should be spelled out.

What about SRT Tech who was trained in a completely other discipline where friction hitches don't exist? What about tower climbers who enter into tree care? Search and Rescue guys? Firemen? Do you think a SWAT guy throws on a friction hitch to scale doown the side of a building. These guys are coming in with nothing but new school climbing methods. Until they climb with some traditional tree climbers, they may not know that friction hitches even exist. Their methods are tried and true and have been around since the fifties and the advent of synthetic lines. They are current, widely used by all aerial disciplines except us, and I would rate this as tried and true and tested. There are dozens of books written on the subject and tapes and DVDs and training systems gall over the world, all NEW SCHOOL. No books, however, are written on Tree Climbers and new school methods. We're stuck in our own traditions and conventions.

Tree Climbers went with half inch (13 mm) climbing lines and used friction hitches on a 2:1 DdRT system. The rest of the climbing world went to 11 mm (and smaller) and the use of devices, climbing and descending on 1:1 systems controlling friction through the device in front of them.

That's the big line of difference. Some traditional climbers are using 11 mm, but still with the friction hitches; old school methods using new school rope diameter.


Let's classify New School and Old School before we get into the simplest of the simple devices. Here is a start. Help me update what we've got down so far:

 

[Tree Machine]

All that's far too vague.

Using techniques that are not tried and true belong to the foolish school.

I use techniques that are not tried and true. I make them up in some instances. I use devices that I doubt are being used anywhere else. I change devices with the change in moods. I test new friction gear. I will invent it if I have to.




Am I a fool


or am I


an


Innovator.